Is it bad to be patriotic?

[Formaldehyde]

You do notice the use of the modifier "excessive"?

Jingoism is extreme patriotism in the form of aggressive foreign policy.[1] In practice, it is a country's advocation of the use of threats or actual force against other countries in order to safeguard what it perceives as its national interests. Colloquially, it refers to excessive bias in judging one's own country as superior to others—an extreme type of nationalism.

The term originated in Britain, expressing a pugnacious attitude towards Russia in the 1870s, and appeared in the American press by 1895.

Chauvinism

Chauvinism, in its original and primary meaning, is an exaggerated, bellicose patriotism and a belief in national superiority and glory.[1] It is an eponym of a French soldier Nicolas Chauvin who was credited with many superhuman feats in the Napoleonic wars.

By extension, it has come to include an extreme and unreasoning partisanship on behalf of any group to which one belongs, especially when the partisanship includes malice and hatred towards rival groups. Jingoism is the British parallel form of this French word, when referring to nation.[1]

A contemporary use of the term in English is in the phrase male chauvinism.[2]

 

[Oruc]

You do notice the use of the modifier "excessive"?

I was actually referring to the first quote in the opening post my apologies.

 

[MobBoss]

Pride is a deadly sin. Jesus taught us to love thy neighbour. Being proud of one's nation is spitting in the face of God.

Oh please. Yes, pride is indeed a sin, but that last sentence is just silly.

 

[warpus]

Patiotism in moderation is great.

It's when you overdo it when it becomes annoying and/or inappropriate.

 

[Traitorfish]

Oh please. Yes, pride is indeed a sin, but that last sentence is just silly.

Why? There's a long history of Christian universalism, a far, far more venerable tradition than Christian nationalism/pro-nationalism.

 

[MobBoss]

Why? There's a long history of Christian universalism, a far, far more venerable tradition than Christian nationalism.

Well, please realize that when you read 'pride' in the bible, there are several difference meanings to pride actually, as there are several different words being used while we translate it as only 'pride'.

For example, the biblical word is often refers to arrogance/insolence/haughtiness - which is something that could definitely be lacking in an individual regarding national pride. For example, being proud that your country did well in a particular olympic event shouldnt rise to the level indicated here.

 

[Mise]

It also referred to "unjustified boasting".

 

[Traitorfish]

Well, please realize that when you read 'pride' in the bible, there are several difference meanings to pride actually, as there are several different words being used while we translate it as only 'pride'.

For example, the biblical word is often refers to arrogance/insolence/haughtiness - which is something that could definitely be lacking in an individual regarding national pride. For example, being proud that your country did well in a particular olympic event shouldnt rise to the level indicated here.

That doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of Christian thinkers throughout history, and from Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox backgrounds alike, who wouldn't regard the claim that patriotism is contrary to Christian faith in the least bit "silly".

 

[Formaldehyde]

Well, please realize that when you read 'pride' in the bible, there are several difference meanings to pride actually, as there are several different words being used while we translate it as only 'pride'.

For example, the biblical word is often refers to arrogance/insolence/haughtiness - which is something that could definitely be lacking in an individual regarding national pride. For example, being proud that your country did well in a particular olympic event shouldnt rise to the level indicated here.

Once again, you seem to be completely out of step with so many other Christians while insinuating that your own personal opinion must be right.

In almost every list, pride (Latin, superbia), or hubris (Greek), is considered the original and most serious of the seven deadly sins, and the source of the others. It is identified as a desire to be more important or attractive than others, failing to acknowledge the good work of others, and excessive love of self (especially holding self out of proper position toward God). Dante's definition was "love of self perverted to hatred and contempt for one's neighbour." In Jacob Bidermann's medieval miracle play, Cenodoxus, pride is the deadliest of all the sins and leads directly to the damnation of the titulary famed Parisian doctor. In perhaps the best-known example, the story of Lucifer, pride (his desire to compete with God) was what caused his fall from Heaven, and his resultant transformation into Satan. In Dante's Divine Comedy, the penitents were forced to walk with stone slabs bearing down on their backs to induce feelings of humility.

From your remarks in this forum, you own version of "patriotism" is much more a matter of excessive nationalism than it is mere love of your country. You take it far beyond hoping the US does well during the Olympics, as I do. You even apply it in a negative way to those who merely disagree with your own personal opinions regarding the acts of the government.

 

[Carras Dad]

patriotism isnt bad. it's just one more thing for the weak and feeble minded to cling on to.

 

[MobBoss]

It also referred to "unjustified boasting".

Simply raises the question 'what is justified boasting'?

That doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of Christian thinkers throughout history, and from Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox backgrounds alike, who wouldn't regard the claim that patriotism is contrary to Christian faith in the least bit "silly".

Nice appeal to authority, but surely you could find other 'christian thinkers' that would probably side with me as well. Btw, would these be the same christian thinkers that thought the crusades a great godly idea? Those guys? Hmmm. Yeah. Right.

Its ok. I understand your desire to try and snipe although what a posted was simply a fact. I'tll be ok.

Once again, you seem to be completely out of step with so many other Christians while insinuating that your own personal opinion must be right.

What I said was indeed factual. Try picking up a concordance yourself sometime and maybe you'll learn something.

From your remarks in this forum, you own version of "patriotism" is much more a matter of excessive nationalism than it is mere love of your country.

Judge not!

But thats not anything more than I would expect you of all people to say. Hell, Form, anyone a step to the right of you is an extremist in your eyes so no suprise there.

 

[Winner]

"Patriotism" seems to me just as the politically correct term for "nationalism".

It's useless in most cases, which doesn't mean I occasionally don't feel patriotic. I am just highly allergic to people who think that belonging to a group by the accident of their birth makes them somehow more worthy.

 

[Traitorfish]

Nice appeal to authority, but surely you could find other 'christian thinkers' that would probably side with me as well. Btw, would these be the same christian thinkers that thought the crusades a great godly idea? Those guys? Hmmm. Yeah. Right.

Its ok. I understand your desire to try and snipe although what a posted was simply a fact. I'tll be ok.

...Wait, what? Are we reading the same thread here?

Mise suggested that patriotism was incompatible with Christianity. You said that this was not merely false, but "silly". I contended that many Christian thinkers would not regard it as "silly", but would take it very seriously indeed.

No sniping. No appeals to authority. Only one fact, and I wrote it. So I'm not really sure what you're supposed to be getting at.

 

[Mise]

Well MobBoss, I'm sure Peter will let you off on the technicality.

 

[Flying Pig]

"Patriotism" seems to me just as the politically correct term for "nationalism".

For countries such as my own which are not nation-states - my citizenship is British; my nationality English - that's simply not true, and is where the distinction becomes useful.

 

[El_Machinae]

I think patriotism becomes 'bad' once you seek an advantage for your country at the expense of a non-citizen, and that the 'permission' to mistreat someone comes from the fact that they're a non-citizen.

Nationalism makes it ridiculously difficult to try to treat people equally.

 

[galdre]

Since what country we are born in is pure chance, patriotism/nationalism is frankly ridiculous.

 

[Akka]

Is that in the dictionary somewhere?

In my opinion patriotism is the irrational belief that your country is more worth(and perhaps better) than anyone else's.

Strongly disagree.

What you describe is jingoism/chauvinism, not patriotism.

Patriotism, to me, is not the belief that your country is "better", but the desire for it.

It can lead to bad things (trying to hamper others/do unwholesome things so that your country gets first), but also good things (simply trying to improve your country so it becomes better).

 

[galdre]

Strongly disagree.

What you describe is jingoism/chauvinism, not patriotism.

Patriotism, to me, is not the belief that your country is "better", but the desire for it.

It can lead to bad things (trying to hamper others/do unwholesome things so that your country gets first), but also good things (simply trying to improve your country so it becomes better).

I disagree - when I talk with people here in the US who consider themselves patriotic, they don't think the US should be better, they think it is and therefore does not need to improve

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Patriotism, to me, is not the belief that your country is "better", but the desire for it.

I have to confess I'm shady on the meaning of the word, since it's described as 'devotion' to one's country which would include that sentiment, but leaves one guessing. I see nothing wrong with patriotism as you describe it when it leads to progress (assuming the progress doesn't mean invading Poland as a result).

So, I'm changing my sentiment from "it's silly" to "it depends" hinging on what the heck patriotism actually is.

You make a good point with regard to jingoism/chauvinism, but isn't that also a possible outcome of the sentiment of patriotism?