Is it possible to stop bullying?

[Patroklos]

Eh, when I was in grade school (ending in 1999) there was plenty of punishments for bulleying, both physical and verbal.

You guys keep bandying the "no consequences" thing about as if it is gospel truth but the fact is nobody here has substaniated that.

As for expulsion, i don't think you actually realize what that entails.

 

[kochman]

Lord of the Flies is fiction & even if biographical hardly represents a "natural" interaction among peers. IIRC, these kids were from a highly regimented boarding school within a hierarchical society & then were let loose in a strange & unfamiliar situation with life & death on the line where it was debatable whether all could afford to harmoniously survive. Citing that as proof that bullying is a universal inevitability is like citing the movie-series Roots as proof that slavery is inevitable.

You do realize it was an analogy of a phenomenon that is well known... it's not like this was some cutting edge idea, it was merely a representation of what everyone knew already.

History was dominated with might makes right since the dawn of time...

 

[Patroklos]

I want to say something about this whole "expulsion" thing.

This is how we ended up with people going being banned from public schools for bringing butter knives to school. Their crime? Wanting to spread the peanut butter and jelly on the bread at lunch time because it makes the bread soggy if you do it at 5am and then wait

 

[RobAnybody]

I propose that if bullying is found 3 times, the student is expelled.

Would you have a minimum age for this? Or would you be willing to expel a 5th grader who gives too many wet willies?

This will remove the bully from the school, preventing the disruption, but will also give some power to the victims. The threat of reporting a bully to the school authorities will always loom over bullies, and they may fear expulsion, so will not bother trying anything.

I think you'd need some sort of "trial" or something. Some sort of evidence, like a teacher who saw it or a recording. Otherwise you risk students making it up. A sort of "reverse bullying" where one student threatens to report another student (who may or may not have ever bullied anyone) & get them expelled unless they do as they're told.

Three strike & yer out only works if you define really clearly what a strike is & can prove the strikes happened.

 

[Flying Pig]

I think wiping out bullying would to some extent be a mistake. Yes, it's not nice, and we should be raising our children better, but at the end of the day young Billy is going to have to learn that he won't get on with everybody and how to deal with people who aren't friendly to him without having an emotional breakdown because he can't deal with not being loved.

 

[kochman]

I think wiping out bullying would to some extent be a mistake. Yes, it's not nice, and we should be raising our children better, but at the end of the day young Billy is going to have to learn that he won't get on with everybody and how to deal with people who aren't friendly to him without having an emotional breakdown because he can't deal with not being loved.

A good point I hadn't considered since completely eradicating bullying is quite impossible...

 

[Traitorfish]

I think wiping out bullying would to some extent be a mistake. Yes, it's not nice, and we should be raising our children better, but at the end of the day young Billy is going to have to learn that he won't get on with everybody and how to deal with people who aren't friendly to him without having an emotional breakdown because he can't deal with not being loved.

Most people manage that without being bullied.

 

[Leonel]

I think it is possible to stop bullying. It seems to me that those who do the bullying have some unresolved issues about themselves. Like with my bully, he was on me for 7 long years and about a decade afterwards when I started Facebooking all my old classmates, all of them said that he was kind of a loser and pretty low on the ladder in school.

It occurred to me that he probably bullied me because of his own feelings of inadequacies of not being in a high social position, probably compounded by his father who was a Hong Kong policeman who may have had high standards. I reckon that most bullies, if not all, probably have something going on in their lives that make themselves feel powerless and feel the strong need to regain some of that lost control somehow.

Perhaps a way to deal with bullies is that instead of suspending them and punishing them harshly, they be sent to a psychologist to discover why the bully him or herself is acting out this way. Don't get me wrong, a fist square in the mouth is a good way to deal with bullies but it only treats the symptoms.

 

[asbestos]

I think wiping out bullying would to some extent be a mistake. Yes, it's not nice, and we should be raising our children better, but at the end of the day young Billy is going to have to learn that he won't get on with everybody and how to deal with people who aren't friendly to him without having an emotional breakdown because he can't deal with not being loved.

I see your point, but that would mean that the social majority (i.e. people who weren't bullied) grow up to become that. Which seems absurd on the face of it. If anything, my own [anecdotal] experience suggests that bullied people grow up having less confidence and more neuroses than their peers.

Edit: traitorfish beat me to it.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Kids should receive a proper Russian Patriotic education. Then they'll realize that they need to be united in order to stand against We$tern imperialism, not bully each other. The only kids that will be bullied in such a case will be kids with pro-We$tern, liberastic character, but it's a good thing.

 

[Narz]

Though in truth I personalluy don't consider them bullies as the nanny state would consider them now

You do realize it was an analogy of a phenomenon that is well known... it's not like this was some cutting edge idea, it was merely a representation of what everyone knew already.

Which is what? If you leave a bunch of boys together without supervision for a few days they'll start killing each other?

History was dominated with might makes right since the dawn of time...

As well as cooperation & periods of peace & enlightenment.

It's funny no one ever talks about how sharing & cooperation are "human nature", only the negatives. They facts are both are both of the human animal and what will flourish more depends on what kind of society/family the child is raised in. Rape has been with mankind too since the dawn but you wouldn't shrug your shoulders & say "meh, human nature" if it happened to a loved one. Certain cultures & regions have more or less than others, same with bullying.

 

[Traitorfish]

It's funny no one ever talks about how sharing & cooperation are "human nature", only the negatives. They facts are both are both of the human animal and what will flourish more depends on what kind of society/family the child is raised in. Rape has been with mankind too since the dawn but you wouldn't shrug your shoulders & say "meh, human nature" if it happened to a loved one. Certain cultures & regions have more or less than others, same with bullying.

As far as I can tell, most appeals to "human nature" seems to derive from a sort of vulgar conservatism, a lazy assumption that what is represents all that could be, rather than expressing any real philosophy. What it really means is "I can't be bothered to think about this issue, so I'm going to assume that it's not worth thinking about".

 

[Angst]

Which is what? If you leave a bunch of boys together without supervision for a few days they'll start killing each other?

No, but they bully like poop. Look at the social structures of the internet.

Also, I'm hosting a new Minecraft server for the afterschool club I work at, and the things that went on in the old children-managed one were practically bullying, albeit digitally. They actively seek ways to dominate each other, which we as adults need to show is the wrong way to go about things.

As well as cooperation & periods of peace & enlightenment.

It's funny no one ever talks about how sharing & cooperation are "human nature", only the negatives. They facts are both are both of the human animal and what will flourish more depends on what kind of society/family the child is raised in. Rape has been with mankind too since the dawn but you wouldn't shrug your shoulders & say "meh, human nature" if it happened to a loved one. Certain cultures & regions have more or less than others, same with bullying.

The following are my personal beliefs and should present themselves as challenging opinions, ready to be taken down if you prove me wrong. I'm open-minded. I will, however, note that I won't act differently at work because children do naturally bully each other, and I work my ass out to prevent it. It's at its very core social preying, which is natural for an animal like a human.

Human nature has two faces, a good and a bad one. Christianity, which is popular and relatable is a spiritual path of thought that has dealt with good and bad in humanity, inspired by Zoroaster. Civilization and savagery are two paths that are realistic for an individual to choose. In the Lord of the Flies analogy, savagery, Beelzebub, the Devil, wins. The book utilizes Christian dualist imagery which is relatable to the West, but the analogy is still true in the real world. Many things in the animal or savage side of humanity are nice, but I don't think bullying is one of them, so that's one of the savage sides I attempt to prevent.

I'm not raising the kids to be Christians, but the analogy of good and bad behavior in humans stand true, and while most of the people in a class of youngsters will grow to be 'good', there will almost always be a small portion of 'bad' people who make bad decisions on their own and do bad things to weaker children. The bad behavior must be prevented.

Unwatched without organization and civilization, bad things tend to prosper as they grow from sheer force and violence. But good is persistent because it is, well, just a nicer way of acting - generosity, kindness, helpfulness, understanding are all traits that are wished for and they should all slowly appear over time with wisdom, slowly passed down in writing and institutional control. Children don't normally have that wisdom. If not passed down from a thousand years of slow development towards a rational, good-spirited world, a child which grows up on an island really doesn't care much about his silly peers that are just hindering him in winning at Minecraft.

Although killing is a dramatic overstatement, I really don't think you'd argue that bullying wouldn't be present on an island unsupervised by adults.

Lord of the Flies isn't a scientific source of bad will seeded in humans, but I do not need it to realize that there are bad sides of human nature that are meant to be prevented in order for all of us to get along and feel better.

 

[Angst]

As far as I can tell, most appeals to "human nature" seems to derive from a sort of vulgar conservatism, a lazy assumption that what is represents all that could be, rather than expressing any real philosophy. What it really means is "I can't be bothered to think about this issue, so I'm going to assume that it's not worth thinking about".

What

First off, am I a vulgar conservative? Because that's really funny.

And secondly, I don't really understand what you're saying, if you're addressing or explaining me at all. Care to explain what you meant by this?

 

[BasketCase]

Is it possible to stop bullying?

Yes. What you do is what I did: beat the crap out of the guy doing the bullying.

 

[Agent327]

I've been thinking about bullying since about last week, when a man who graduated in 2006 settled with my school district and got $100,000 because the staff at the high school and middle school didn't do enough to help put a stop to his being harassed.

Is bullying a natural part of life?

Is it possible to stop bullying?

Are Schools doing enough to prevent bullying?

Yes, yes and no, and no. Bullying is part of human nature. Yes, you can stop bullying when you see it, and no because of the first. Schools don´t always notice bullying and sometimes don´t do enough to try and stop it.

I was only bullied once into fighting a boy from my class. I to this day do not know how he perceived it (a lot of peer pressure was involved), but I had no quarrel with him and did not want to hurt him, so all I did was defend myself from him. At some point the boys seemed to have had enough of it, and I´ve never been bullied since. I have been molested twice since, so bullying doesn´t stop at school either.

 

[Narz]

No, but they bully like poop. Look at the social structures of the internet.

Also, I'm hosting a new Minecraft server for the afterschool club I work at, and the things that went on in the old children-managed one were practically bullying, albeit digitally. They actively seek ways to dominate each other, which we as adults need to show is the wrong way to go about things.

Well we live in a culture that honors oneupmanship & dominance over each other. I don't know about Minecraft but most games (including Civ) are about domination of others. Looks like Minecraft has a cooperative element, dunno if they is direct player to player combat.

The following are my personal beliefs and should present themselves as challenging opinions, ready to be taken down if you prove me wrong. I'm open-minded. I will, however, note that I won't act differently at work because children do naturally bully each other, and I work my ass out to prevent it. It's at its very core social preying, which is natural for an animal like a human.

Western culture values winners, no one wants to be a loser, so they try to dominate each other. Obviously all creatures have this ability to try & defeat/best/dominate each other if necessary but the degree to which one is focused on this varies.

Human nature has two faces, a good and a bad one. Christianity, which is popular and relatable is a spiritual path of thought that has dealt with good and bad in humanity, inspired by Zoroaster. Civilization and savagery are two paths that are realistic for an individual to choose. In the Lord of the Flies analogy, savagery, Beelzebub, the Devil, wins. The book utilizes Christian dualist imagery which is relatable to the West, but the analogy is still true in the real world. Many things in the animal or savage side of humanity are nice, but I don't think bullying is one of them, so that's one of the savage sides I attempt to prevent.

I'm not raising the kids to be Christians, but the analogy of good and bad behavior in humans stand true, and while most of the people in a class of youngsters will grow to be 'good', there will almost always be a small portion of 'bad' people who make bad decisions on their own and do bad things to weaker children. The bad behavior must be prevented.

I agree that bullying can & should be prevented & that certain people are more cruel than others (probably for reasons of both nature & nurture).

The reason people bully is because they can get away with it. If it provided no benefit (either in acquiring lunch money or the respect/fear of others) it would cease.

Unwatched without organization and civilization, bad things tend to prosper as they grow from sheer force and violence. But good is persistent because it is, well, just a nicer way of acting - generosity, kindness, helpfulness, understanding are all traits that are wished for and they should all slowly appear over time with wisdom, slowly passed down in writing and institutional control. Children don't normally have that wisdom. If not passed down from a thousand years of slow development towards a rational, good-spirited world, a child which grows up on an island really doesn't care much about his silly peers that are just hindering him in winning at Minecraft.

Well, there are studies that show even babies have altruistic instincts. I do agree with the necessity for moral teaching of course because what grows or fades within an individual depends on what their culture/family/institutions deems valuable.

Although killing is a dramatic overstatement, I really don't think you'd argue that bullying wouldn't be present on an island unsupervised by adults.

I wouldn't argue that. However, are children unsupervised by adults a natual phenomenon. It's true that when growing up my friends & I would always rip on each other when away from adults but this isn't quite the same as bullying. I do believe it's possibly for children to interact unsupervised without bullying.

Lord of the Flies isn't a scientific source of bad will seeded in humans, but I do not need it to realize that there are bad sides of human nature that are meant to be prevented in order for all of us to get along and feel better.

Trust me, I've experienced many LoTF type moments/situations in my lifetime (usually on the losing team but occasionally as a neutral party standing by as aggressors pick on someone else & I don't intervene lest it be me next time... not proud of this of course).

I'm not sure what I can argue with you about, I pretty much agree with you.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

This is how we ended up with people going being banned from public schools for bringing butter knives to school. Their crime? Wanting to spread the peanut butter and jelly on the bread at lunch time because it makes the bread soggy if you do it at 5am and then wait

Incompetent school administrators are incompetent. Does it matter what rule they're enforcing?

I think you'd need some sort of "trial" or something.
Three strike & yer out only works if you define really clearly what a strike is & can prove the strikes happened.

Schools don't use due process as it is. School is not a democracy. (I'm sure you've had some heavy-handed teachers tell you that.) It is the teachers and administrators who tell the students what to do, who have to fall in line. These rules are left up to their discretion to enforce, but at least if they are given this power, they can use it. That's the same with other rules in schools. If a student misbehaves for anything, it is the teacher's discretion as to what to do. Only if an outright crime is committed is the school obliged to do something.

 

[Patroklos]

It's funny no one ever talks about how sharing & cooperation are "human nature", only the negatives.

In my experiance bullying consists generally of one GROUP against another group or individual. The cool kids againt the nerds, the jocks agains the goths, of the classroom against the one outsider.

Cooperation or the lack there of is not incompatible wiht bullying.

Incompetent school administrators are incompetent. Does it matter what rule they're enforcing?

Thats not always them being incompetent, thats them enforcing the rules people give them like "expel all bullies."

Its also self protection, as the first time they say don't expel someone for saying "Johnny is a poopy head!" and Johnnys family finds out about it they get sued and the school system loses a few million in operating budget.

This is EXACTLY what happened in regards to zero tolerance type approaches. All I am saying is avoid over reactions (in reference to the expel them all comment).

 

[Angst]

Replying to the parts of your post, Narz, that I disagree with or wish to expand upon.

Well we live in a culture that honors oneupmanship & dominance over each other. I don't know about Minecraft but most games (including Civ) are about domination of others. Looks like Minecraft has a cooperative element, dunno if they is direct player to player combat.

You can choose to shape your server as PvP or PvE; I've chosen to host our club server as against the Environment, it is authoritative, but it allows me to have an idea of what's going on.

The server the kids used to have was rampant abuse, random bannings and stealing.

Western culture values winners, no one wants to be a loser, so they try to dominate each other. Obviously all creatures have this ability to try & defeat/best/dominate each other if necessary but the degree to which one is focused on this varies.

Culture is a human construct and is provided by human nature, but yea, you said that, and you pretty much hit the spot when you noted that there are different values in humans, some of which should be promoted more than others. That's kind of my job.

Well, there are studies that show even babies have altruistic instincts. I do agree with the necessity for moral teaching of course because what grows or fades within an individual depends on what their culture/family/institutions deems valuable.

I don't deny that people are born with good within! Such comes behavior along with bad ways. If babies had not a seed of goodwill, why would humans ever develop good things?

I wouldn't argue that. However, are children unsupervised by adults a natual phenomenon. It's true that when growing up my friends & I would always rip on each other when away from adults but this isn't quite the same as bullying. I do believe it's possibly for children to interact unsupervised without bullying.

I think they're extremely prone to prey upon each other in order to establish some sort of social hierarchy and institution. (Which is the simplest form of anecessity that a society, even a small one, has.)

I'm not sure what I can argue with you about, I pretty much agree with you.

I think so too.