[BTS] Is Monty plotting war on me?

[Kaitzilla]

I'll hope someone knows, so that I can reevaluate my knowledge.

I've looked around more on this, and DanF5771 offered some info on this topic long ago.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-getting-out-of-wheoohrn.325581/#post-8208698

^That was indeed just happening by coincidence as the mechanics for exiting WHEOOHRN are totally independent of changes in the target's power --> you can delete ALL of your units and they still might switch out of WHEOOHRN!

To my knowledge there are only 2 situations that make AIs drop their war preparations:

• They are preparing for a total war against a land target and lack the necessary offensive units; this judgement solely depends on the number (not strength) and UnitAI of their units in relation to the number and size of their cities (Saladin in ALC#24).
• They get DoW'd on by someone else before they start their planned war.

Peace treaties as a result of one-sided trades (give help, accept demands) will only postpone war.


Possibilities are rather limited:

• Gift them happy and health resources so that they can grow fatter with larger cities (success is rather uncertain), or even gift them a city . Also there is the risk (and no way to tell for sure) that they might have skipped the revocable preparation phase (WARPLAN_PREPARING_TOTAL) due to using Dagger strategy (immediate WARPLAN_TOTAL).
• Bribe other players into a war against them.

 

[guermantes]

I'm gonna stick my neck out a bit here, in all humility. I remember a long time ago, either here or on Apolyton, possibly a mention by Velocyrix or solver in order to correct a common misunderstanding, that begging the AI will NOT give you a peace treaty if they give in. It will only prevent you from declaring ON THEM for ten turns but they are free to declare on you. Likewise, if Monty comes to your borders and he requests fish from you, then giving in will give you ten turns of security from being attacked (effectively giving you time to amass your army and take out his stack while it's close). This logic also strikes me as sensible; why should Monty be prevented from hacking you apart just because you are a bully asking for fish? I think maybe using the term peace treaty in this context has confused the understanding of what actually happens.

I say all this without having fired up a test scenario, so it may be I who am confused, though.

 

[AcaMetis]

I've definitely had AI armies dance on my border for ten turns after a beg, only to walk on with a DoW on the turn after, so even if AIs can break the peace treaty they apparently don't. As far as I know peace treaties are always two-sided, though.

 

[lymond]

Peace treaties are peace treaties and always two-sided. Not sure what those guys were thinking but they were wrong.

 

[guermantes]

I've definitely had AI armies dance on my border for ten turns after a beg, only to walk on with a DoW on the turn after, so even if AIs can break the peace treaty they apparently don't. As far as I know peace treaties are always two-sided, though.

After your beg?

I was trying to simulate this for the last hour or so. Just advancing through a game until the AI would beg a resource from me, whereupon I could give in and then test if I could declare immediately... But the morons never begged. I guess I need to set up a game surrounded by monty, shaka and nappy, remove their resources and make sure they see all my WB-inserted gold, gems, elephants and iron.

 

[guermantes]

Peace treaties are peace treaties and always two-sided. Not sure what those guys were thinking but they were wrong.

But are we sure they actually are peace treaties for the person who gives in. Do we have a reference to the code or is it merely taken for granted on the forums where it is referred to as peace treaties? I guess @Tachywaxon could answer this in a jiffy...

 

[lymond]

But are we sure.......

Absolutely.

 

[elmurcis]

I thought that this is common stuff to use these 10T just to get out defense and (if there are some potential units teleport action possible after peace treaty ends) prepare some siege to deal with SoD. Atleast for me AI did attack many times after that period did end. Funny if its naval SoD with Open borders. Will unload all units into (previous) target city and stack of ships will go back home. If lucky, all units will be sent to some lonely tiny island outside of culture borders to stay there forever. Happy Soldiers Island

 

[guermantes]

Funny how you can play a game since launch, introduce it to friends and hang around the forums and yet not pick up on this mechanic Maybe that's why I am stuck on Monarch/Emperor
Not that I would have continued to doubt people far more well-versed in the code than I am, but now I have also managed to see the mechanic in action for myself in a test game. Even switched to play as Monty with Alt-Z after I begged from him, and he/I couldn't declare on my civ anymore. Live and learn, I guess.

 

[Gumbolt]

I think one thing from my current game I am playing is where AI stacks appear on borders. So Vikings had 7-8 units on my border without a red fist. I had watched them gradually building up units in this stack. I didn't stop their attack but by time it arrived with 2-3HA, 2 -3 catapults and a few chariots I already had a stack of 2-3 spears and 5-6 axes in my city. A few turns later I had elephants. At which point the Ai stack was gone and I was taking the fight to the AI.

I probably could of demanded a tribute but seemed little point as I knew how weak the DOW would be. On Deity getting Ai to pleased or friendly would certainly be more wise. Not 100% sure begging stops a dow. Sometimes the Ai will just stack up more units. Worse case scenario they get a more advanced tech and you are fighting a stronger stack.

You should be able to tell peace treaties as you get the coloured symbol by the AI name indicating you are in a ten turn peace. Begging has it's place if you want to stop AI joining a war against you. Gifting cities is the quickest way to get +4 diplo points.

The chaliced cup could be religion? Adopting one can often help with AI X but could upset AI Y. Which could impact tech trades.

I don't think I am ever at just warrior defences all game. I guess perfect play might get this if you can get all Ai happy asap. Probably rarely happens that quickly.

 

[ArchGhost]

I'm gonna stick my neck out a bit here, in all humility. I remember a long time ago, either here or on Apolyton, possibly a mention by Velocyrix or solver in order to correct a common misunderstanding, that begging the AI will NOT give you a peace treaty if they give in. It will only prevent you from declaring ON THEM for ten turns but they are free to declare on you. Likewise, if Monty comes to your borders and he requests fish from you, then giving in will give you ten turns of security from being attacked (effectively giving you time to amass your army and take out his stack while it's close). This logic also strikes me as sensible; why should Monty be prevented from hacking you apart just because you are a bully asking for fish? I think maybe using the term peace treaty in this context has confused the understanding of what actually happens.

Peace treaties are indeed two-sided. It what makes the "beg" mechanic work at all, and why it's sometimes seen as an OP mechanic or fair enough given how much the AI cheats. This aspect is also what effects things like bribability (can't bribe an AI on someone they just got out of war with since they take peace treaties usually) and interferes with the AP war/peacekeeping votes (interturn treaties can cancel the vote).

Peace is not iron-clad though:

Peace Treaties can theoretically be broken if they are expired but not cancelled yet. AIs cancel the treaty the first chance they get from what I've seen so I'm not even sure this can happen for them.

AIs can break multiple concurrent peace treaties if they can break one of them (I'd assume the first to expire, not sure though). I've had it happen twice -- one of them I had 3 concurrent treaties with Monty (set to expire on interturn, expires in 4 turns, and brand new one expiring in 10 turns). He broke them all to DoW me after the first expired. It been a couple years and maybe there were other factors I don't remember (patch 3.17 and maybe AP stuff?) but I distinctly remember the outcome.

DoWs due to Defensive Pacts also ignore peace treaties. The partner WILL DoW you through a peace treaty you have with them, if you DoW their counterpart signatory. This one confused me quite a bit before I figured it out.

AIs that plot a war over a refused demand also act....goofy, for lack of a better description. They can and will DoW on you even if at war already which is normally a get-out-of-jail free card regarding dodging aggression. The actual DoW force may be comically small though (like, a ship or a couple crossbows) if they've already committed their stack elsewhere. I don't know how it interacts with normal peace treaties other than the fact they can still plot the punitive attack while at peace with you.

 

[Gumbolt]

One would imagine an Ap vote could break a peace treaty if it asks all members to delcare a holy war? Not tried this. Would be very unlikely as the AI would have to not have any AP religion? Possible?

 

[Bibor]

Another question: do events that give -3 relations (which usually triggers an insta-war) work while the 10-turn truce is up? I know many here don't play with events turned on, but...

 

[AcaMetis]

I think they do? Can't 100% confirm, though.