Is not wanting to date trans individuals transphobic?

[Farm Boy]

I mean...being transphobic is indirectly supporting the murder of trans people imo...

Let me get this straight. You are actually following the line of logic that states somebody being uninterested in frucknucking makes them phobic makes them indirectly supporting murder since they aren't DTF?

 

[Lexicus]

Indirectly and perhaps unwittingly, sure. But that's exactly why awareness is so important. One can both find trans people unattractive and still advocate for trans equality.

Perhaps in terms of pure logic, yes, but I find it generally unlikely that a person who "finds trans people unattractive" for no other reason than that they're trans is also going to advocate for trans equality.

You are actually following the line of logic that states somebody being uninterested in frucknucking makes them phobic makes them indirectly supporting murder since they aren't DTF?

No. You also may be attaching more significance to 'indirectly supporting' than I am - I am using it in a very loose sense, ie we all live in this society and indirectly support the terrible things it does simply by living in it. My line of logic would be closer to

not DTF for any reason other than (for example) "this girl I otherwise find totally attractive used to have a dick" -> extremely likely to be transphobic -> extremely likely (almost certain) to, by word or deed, contribute to a cultural climate in which regular violence against trans people is a matter of course.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

When you call certain thoughts "hateful" that is exactly what you're doing. We all know that it's just another step towards it being considered "hate speech" and then outlawed altogether. It's pretty clear what the agenda here is.

I'd say that letting the hateful thought out your mouth (or fingertips) is a pretty effing huge 'another step.' I was raised by a flaming bigot who taught me an ethnic slur for literally every occasion. They pop up in my thoughts all the time. But I am responsible for not letting them turn into hate speech. That has nothing to do with "thought police," that's just me being responsible for my own thoughts.

You are not only not clear on the "agenda," you aren't even keeping up with the basic conversation.

 

[Farm Boy]

That's exactly what I thought you meant Lex.

The premises around sex that this requires are <snip>. Backwards in the extreme.

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[Lexicus]

The premises around sex that this requires are <snip>.

Oh? Please explain moar.

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[Narz]

No, it's absurd and steeped in prejudice/transphobia.

The question nobody seems willing to answer is, what is the source of not wanting to date a trans woman?

Doesn't matter. Is it up to you to police attraction? Someone who doesn't want to date a fat person is going to have his own reasons, same with a short, tall, French or hairy person. Any reason is valid and calling names (racist, xyzaphobe, etc based only on someone's sexual preference) is idiotic and none of your damn business.

It's like calling a vegetarian a "meataphobe" just cuz they don't want a bite of your burger. <snip> and mindja business.

I like <snip> and nice wide hips n narrow waist and big feminine eyes and a fertile womb. You gonna call me names cuz that's what I want to put my dick in? This is the garbage that makes impressionable youngsters run to the right, it's why we have Trump, you're arguing over my right to desire what I desire while the world burns. Get a life.

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[metalhead]

Perhaps in terms of pure logic, yes, but I find it generally unlikely that a person who "finds trans people unattractive" for no other reason than that they're trans is also going to advocate for trans equality.

I'm not going to go quite that far, only because I think this is an area where people, especially people my age and older, have been quite explicitly conditioned to view trans people as deviant, not deserving of love and affection, certainly not deserving of feelings of intimacy and attraction. That's a lot to overcome. What a decent person can do is set that aside and recognize the error in their thinking, even if deep down they'll never quite change their way of thinking. I mean, the only thing we ever had to counter that conditioning was The Crying Game.

No. You also may be attaching more significance to 'indirectly supporting' than I am - I am using it in a very loose sense, ie we all live in this society and indirectly support the terrible things it does simply by living in it. My line of logic would be closer to

not DTF for any reason other than (for example) "this girl I otherwise find totally attractive used to have a dick" -> extremely likely to be transphobic -> extremely likely (almost certain) to, by word or deed, contribute to a cultural climate in which regular violence against trans people is a matter of course.

To riff off what Tim said a bit - if a person felt that way and didn't feel it acceptable to broadcast that to people, then the third part of that equation may very well not follow at all. If some bro goes around braying that to his idiot friends, then yeah, totally.

 

[Narz]

To me the fundamental question is this: Why do you think that a refusal to date a particular subset of humans, for whatever arbitrary and personal reason (up to and including revulsion), must necessarily have a significant [negative] bearing on how you treat that subset of humans in any other walk of life?

Well put. Most of my favorite people I'd be lothe to bang.

 

[metalhead]

Doesn't matter. Is it up to you to police attraction? Someone who doesn't want to date a fat person is going to have his own reasons, same with a short, tall, French or hairy person. Any reason is valid and calling names (racist, xyzaphobe, etc based only on someone's sexual preference) is idiotic and none of your damn business.

It's like calling a vegetarian a "meataphobe" just cuz they don't want a bite of your burger. F-off and mindja business.

I like puss grown not carved and nice wide hips n narrow waist and big feminine eyes and a fertile womb. You gonna call me names cuz that's what I want to put my dick in?

Nope. However I think it makes sense to point out when people stuck in adolescence contribute to a social climate that promotes indifference about violence towards trans people. Such as is very likely the case if you'd actually put to paper the thought that "I like puss grown not carved," making a direct value judgment over something you wouldn't know the difference over unless you were told.

Pointing out that you're a juvenile transphobe isn't "calling you names." Grow up.

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[Timsup2nothin]

To riff off what Tim said a bit - if a person felt that way and didn't feel it acceptable to broadcast that to people, then the third part of that equation may very well not follow at all. If some bro goes around braying that to his idiot friends, then yeah, totally.

The missing element there is that the guy who isn't "braying it to his friends" never entered that logic train, because even if they did think 'the only reason I'm not DTF this girl I find otherwise attractive is that she used to have a dick' no one has any way of knowing they thought that. They just said "no, thanks" and went their way. In my opinion their ability to be responsible for keeping their thoughts rather than braying their prejudgement makes them not likely to be transphobic, or contribute to the uncomfortable cultural climate.

They may have the thought, but it is fear or the quest for power that demands that they share it in a hurtful way.

 

[Farm Boy]

Oh? Please explain moar.

<shrugs> I'm judging you. I thought that seemed to be the purpose of this thread, honestly. To share our judgements on each other's morality. More specific since you want - I'm calling your line of thinking barbaric, uncivilized, animalistic. It's **** ****.

 

[Ryika]

The missing element there is that the guy who isn't "braying it to his friends" never entered that logic train, because even if they did think 'the only reason I'm not DTF this girl I find otherwise attractive is that she used to have a dick' no one has any way of knowing they thought that. They just said "no, thanks" and went their way. In my opinion their ability to be responsible for keeping their thoughts rather than braying their prejudgement makes them not likely to be transphobic, or contribute to the uncomfortable cultural climate.

So you're language policing after all.

Keep in mind though, this thread is designed to discuss that topic, I doubt that people would actively make it a big deal in real life.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

So you're language policing after all.

I've never said, anywhere, that I oppose putting limits on hate speech. That is a far cry from policing thought.

 

[Akka]

I answered it above. The short answer is, copulating with a family member has potentially very negative practical consequences, so specifically having an aversion to it and ceasing attraction to a sibling makes logical sense. No such consequence, no such logical reason for avoiding a trans person, and in fact a trans person offers no chance of reproduction at all.

And again, the answer completely avoid the core point and try to sidetrack it somewhere else. It's not about reproduction, it's about attraction. Most sex has nothing to do with children. The repulsion toward family members has nothing to do with children.
All these points have already been pointed. You're again just purposedly avoiding the core point, simply because you know it proves you wrong.

Fewer potential negative consequences than even sleeping with a cis person. But go ahead and keep believing the situations are equivalent if it makes you feel better.

So far you've completely failed to prove they aren't, and you have put a ton of efforts, that at least three persons have called you about, to avoid the main point.
But keep throwing your "transphobic" accusation if it makes you feel better.

And the strawman of "transphobic = supports murdering trans people" is asinine. Nobody is arguing that, but who am I to interrupt a strawman circle jerk?

Ahah, YOU talking about strawman circle jerk, pretty funny

Anyway, the "transphobic = support murdering trans people" is VERY obviously a mocking hyperbole. You keep focusing on it, despite the fact that you KNOW it's mocking hyperbole, and that it's not the real core of the argument. You're just keeping on proving that you are just grasping at straws to deflect the attention from the fact you're totally unable to counter the real point.

 

[Ryika]

I've never said, anywhere, that I oppose putting limits on hate speech. That is a far cry from policing thought.

Classifying a person who just gives their reason for why they wouldn't date a person as a person who is uttering hate speech does not sound very reasonable to me.

 

[Farm Boy]

It's not. What they should called is a butthole.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Classifying a person who just gives their reason for why they wouldn't date a person as a person who is uttering hate speech does not sound very reasonable to me.

Really? You think there is some good reason to tell someone "All that you've gone through isn't enough for me. To me, you're still a man." other than hate, or spite, or some other nastiness? What do you offer as an alternate motive, counselor? I'm certainly open to find reasonable doubt, but as of now I don't have any believable alternate theory.

 

[Akka]

I've never said, anywhere, that I oppose putting limits on hate speech. That is a far cry from policing thought.

And we're back to "I don't find X attractive because Y" is "hate speech" ?

There is a lot of intellectual posturing about conditioning and its effects and how it makes people think all sort of things tolerable (namely : "if you find trans unattractive because they're trans, you promote a climate in which they are oppressed"). It seems this reasoning stop dead when it's going the other way, and it's not a big deal to try to enforce criteria of attraction despite what they feel ("if you don't find trans attractive you're a dirty bigot"). And as it was pointed several times, replace "trans" by "women" and woooops, it becomes homophobic. At which point I'm 100 % absolutely certain that the exact same persons would reverse their position and say it's terribad to do such kind of conditioning.

Isn't the constant position-switching amusing ?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

And we're back to "I don't find X attractive because Y" is "hate speech" ?

I would give the same answer I just gave to Valessa, but that would be repetitious.

 

[Akka]

Really? You think there is some good reason to tell someone "All that you've gone through isn't enough for me. To me, you're still a man." other than hate, or spite, or some other nastiness?

Ah, so my preferences are conditionned to the efforts the person has made, or the hardship the person had in life ?
So if a very ugly girl spent a ton of time trying to improve her physical appearance, at some point if I don't say "okay you're pretty and I'll date you", then it's hate, spite or other nastiness ?

I wonder if you applied this reasoning to your dating. I really hope you weren't hateful enough to reject girls who made a ton of efforts to be attractive to you.

What do you offer as an alternate motive, counselor? I'm certainly open to find reasonable doubt, but as of now I don't have any believable alternate theory.

"I'm not attracted to you, sorry."
Until this thread popped up, I wasn't aware that my feelings were up to judgements, and that my attraction to people was warranted to be controled by some thought police who would check if said attraction had rational reason that could be validated by a group of People Who Know Morality to determine if I was of a Good Moral Character for liking the Right People for the Right Reasons, or if I was just a Dirty Bigots who don't like the Right People because of Bad Reasons.