Is racism in America really classism?

[_random_]

My very affluent black cousin, with legit conservative family credentials, once got stopped by a cop who pulled him over, "to make sure everything was OK."

There was a white girl in the car so I mean, I guess he had to check?

My mom's former boss, who was a successful medical guy but was black and drove an older car, had to reroute his commute because he kept getting pulled over in a wealthy suburb.

 

[caketastydelish]

My very affluent black cousin, with legit conservative family credentials, once got stopped by a cop who pulled him over, "to make sure everything was OK."

There was a white girl in the car so I mean, I guess he had to check?

My mom's former boss, who was a successful medical guy but was black and drove an older car, had to reroute his commute because he kept getting pulled over in a wealthy suburb.

My countries current President is a successful black guy. I mean, he earned both his undergraduate degree in political science and his J.D. from Ivy League Universities, had incredible success at the local level in Chicago making huge strides for the community there, went on to win a seat as a senator of his state by a landslide despite his 'inexperience with politics', and is even now the president.

Despite this, he's the first president in history that a hell of a lot of people think must be a 'secret muslim' even though there is absolutely no evidence to prove this, and a lot of people also think he is not a legitimate American citizen and his birth certificate was fake. Some even go as far to say that he's a terrorist that is plotting against America. Thus must be true (that a lot of people believe this), because there are 'non-fiction' New York times best selling books that advocate this point of view.

edit: Sure Bill Clinton went under fire for 'having sex with that woman' but at least their was some amount of truth with that criticism, even though as far as I'm concerned it's mostly irrelevant with making policies for the country (which in a logical world, would be the only thing the general public would care about in their president).

 

[Lord Baal]

To be fair, they balanced out the diversity in "Into Darkness" by recasting Khan as a mentally disabled character.

They also re-cast Kirk as a mentally disabled character, so it's not that diverse.

 

[bhsup]

Aren't anecdotal stories not supposed to mean crap because they're just anecdotes and not worthy of being used to draw any real meaning from? Cuz, you know, I get told that occasionally... even have the word fallacy thrown at me occasionally, when I use an anecdote.

 

[Lord Baal]

Aren't anecdotal stories not supposed to mean crap because they're just anecdotes and not worthy of being used to draw any real meaning from? Cuz, you know, I get told that occasionally... even have the word fallacy thrown at me occasionally, when I use an anecdote.

Anecdotes can be used in a discussion, but only if they can be supported by other sources, or if the discussion is subjective to begin with.

 

[Tahuti]

Aren't anecdotal stories not supposed to mean crap because they're just anecdotes and not worthy of being used to draw any real meaning from? Cuz, you know, I get told that occasionally... even have the word fallacy thrown at me occasionally, when I use an anecdote.

Anecdotes that are actually true can disprove certain assumptions. For example, if people say schools are closed by the government if the graduation rate is lower than 40%, it is disproven by any personal experience in which schools that have indeed such low graduation rates for years are still operational.

 

[ParkCungHee]

They also re-cast Kirk as a mentally disabled character, so it's not that diverse.

It certainly brought new urgency to Star Fleet's mission to seek out intelligent life.

 

[nc-1701]

What really bothers me about this discussion (not just this thread but in general), is that anyone who argues that racism isn't as big a problem as claimed is immediately accused of being a racist. That isn't healthy for discussion and makes it seem like those arguing that there is racism are afraid their arguments won't hold up on their own.

1) There is clearly some level of discrimination in the criminal justice system. Particularly in crimes that our society thinks of as being related to poor people, I think this is where racism and classism mix together.
As a corollary to this I absolutely hate how people will have to open up with "I'm not racist but..." before the question any CW on race. It feels like this is the one subject where Tumblr style "Call out culture" is considered appropriate outside of Tumblr.


2) It's often given as an example that black people are harassed more by traffic cops etc. But I hear about people getting let off with warnings all the time, never happened to my white self. I even got fined $110 for having a tail light burn out. Anecdotal of course, but I feel like when something unfair happens to a black person we get to place it on racism, where as when that happens to a white person we treat it as just a normal instance of bad luck. Rigorous statistical data is required to support those kind of claims, and with the exception of the aforementioned Marijuana situation I haven't seen any evidence of it.

3) Just because racism exists doesn't necessarily make it a serious problem or a major factor in the way of a black person. If the extent of racism is occasionally getting unfairly hassled by cops then that's a problem, but hardly one of the bigger ones that person might face in their life.

4) I wish there was data on this, but I'll but there is a huge gap in marijuana convictions between poor and wealthy people, but classism isn't a legitimate -ism in America so we only hear about the racial differences. Why does racial discrimination get to be the form of discrimination people care about?

Aren't anecdotal stories not supposed to mean crap because they're just anecdotes and not worthy of being used to draw any real meaning from? Cuz, you know, I get told that occasionally... even have the word fallacy thrown at me occasionally, when I use an anecdote.

Spoiler :

An anecdote or example can be used to falsify a universal statement or prove an existence statement. Often people try to use them to prove a universal statement which it cannot do.

Mathy examples:

"All prime numbers are odd" is a universal statement so all we need to do is give the example that 2 is not odd and is prime, therefore the statement has been disproved.

"Some prime numbers are even" is an existence statement so again we give 2 as an example and prove it.

What we cannot use anecdotes for"

"All prime numbers are odd" If we say, well 3, 5, and 7 are all prime so it must be true! We would be wrong since 9 isn't...

 

[Formaldehyde]

What really bothers me about this discussion (not just this thread but in general), is that anyone who argues that racism isn't as big a problem as claimed is immediately accused of being a racist.

Then I'm sure you won't mind posting even one example.

If the extent of racism is occasionally getting unfairly hassled by cops then that's a problem, but hardly one of the bigger ones that person might face in their life.

"What really bothers me" is when people who don't want to admit that institutional racism is still an endemic problem in the US and elsewhere try to dismiss it like this. Being "unfairly hassled" more than whites during traffic stops is just one of the many examples.

4) I wish there was data on this, but I'll but there is a huge gap in marijuana convictions between poor and wealthy people, but classism isn't a legitimate -ism in America so we only hear about the racial differences. Why does racial discrimination get to be the form of discrimination people care about?

The actual problem is just the opposite. That many authoritarian "law and order" right-wingers don't really care at all about the institutional racism. And they typically don't care much about the classism either. What they do care about is when their own kids are the victims. This is largely what got the police in some parts of the country to start having a more relaxed attitude towards this "crime". Until the 60s, pot smoking in Texas was a felony which carried a sentence of 5 years in prison. It wasn't until affluent white kids started being arrested on a regular basis that it changed. And now it is selectively enforced based on both race or ethnic group and the odds that your parents or friends might be someone who is influential.

 

[Borachio]

What really bothers me about this discussion (not just this thread but in general), is that anyone who argues that racism isn't as big a problem as claimed is immediately accused of being a racist. That isn't healthy for discussion and makes it seem like those arguing that there is racism are afraid their arguments won't hold up on their own.

1) There is clearly some level of discrimination in the criminal justice system. Particularly in crimes that our society thinks of as being related to poor people, I think this is where racism and classism mix together.
As a corollary to this I absolutely hate how people will have to open up with "I'm not racist but..." before the question any CW on race. It feels like this is the one subject where Tumblr style "Call out culture" is considered appropriate outside of Tumblr.


2) It's often given as an example that black people are harassed more by traffic cops etc. But I hear about people getting let off with warnings all the time, never happened to my white self. I even got fined $110 for having a tail light burn out. Anecdotal of course, but I feel like when something unfair happens to a black person we get to place it on racism, where as when that happens to a white person we treat it as just a normal instance of bad luck. Rigorous statistical data is required to support those kind of claims, and with the exception of the aforementioned Marijuana situation I haven't seen any evidence of it.

3) Just because racism exists doesn't necessarily make it a serious problem or a major factor in the way of a black person. If the extent of racism is occasionally getting unfairly hassled by cops then that's a problem, but hardly one of the bigger ones that person might face in their life.

4) I wish there was data on this, but I'll but there is a huge gap in marijuana convictions between poor and wealthy people, but classism isn't a legitimate -ism in America so we only hear about the racial differences. Why does racial discrimination get to be the form of discrimination people care about?

I have some (just a tiny bit) of sympathy for your point of view, which I believe is motivated by the wish that racism isn't as a big a problem in the US as you fear.

However, this sort of article would tend to indicate the exact opposite. Unfortunately.

The reason, I suggest, why racism is to be deplored, more than "classism", is very simple: no one can change their race; while, although there's only a very small chance of doing so, it is theoretically possible to change one's class. At least, after one or two generations.

 

[luiz]

So let me get this straight... because you personally weren't the subject of racism, racism isn't a big issue? Amazing.

It doesn't disproved racism, but it is strong evidence that racism is not an overwhelming part of life for Hispanics in the USA, provided they aren't poor anyway.

Discrimination against poor people is a worldwide phenomenon, it's just that in the USA a very large number of poor people belong to minorities. In the case of Hispanics this is not due to racism but rather of mostly being recent immigrants from poor countries, or the children of such immigrants.

 

[Formaldehyde]

It doesn't disproved racism, but it is strong evidence that racism is not an overwhelming part of life for Hispanics in the USA, provided they aren't poor anyway.

So as long as it doesn't personally affect you and other affluent Hispanics, it really isn't that serious of a problem?

Discrimination against poor people is a worldwide phenomenon, it's just that in the USA a very large number of poor people belong to minorities. In the case of Hispanics this is not due to racism but rather of mostly being recent immigrants from poor countries, or the children of such immigrants.

Do you think 40% of the Hispanics in the US are "poor"? That they own phones and respond to polls?

Hispanics Face Most Discrimination In U.S. (POLL)

WASHINGTON — Who's discriminated against in America? More people say Hispanics than blacks or women – and it's far from just Hispanics who feel that way.

An Associated Press-Univision Poll found that 61 percent of people overall said Hispanics face significant discrimination, compared with 52 percent who said blacks do and 50 percent who said women.

The survey also underscored how perceptions of prejudice can vary by ethnicity. While 81 percent of Latinos said Hispanics confront a lot or some discrimination, a smaller but still substantial 59 percent of non-Hispanics said so.

It is not unusual for members of a group to feel they face more prejudice. In this survey, that was especially true when people were asked about "a lot" of discrimination. Fifty-five percent of Hispanics but only 24 percent of non-Hispanics said Hispanics encounter that.

"I see it in people's faces, in the way they react," said Raymond Angulo, 66, a Mexican-born U.S. citizen and retiree from Pico Rivera, Calif. "It's gotten somewhat better, but it's still there. I feel like it's never going away."

However, Jason Welty, a lawn care specialist in Indianapolis who is not Hispanic, said he has seen little evidence of the problem despite working frequently with Hispanics.

"They're treated by most of our clients and the people we work with just like anybody else," said Welty, 30.

The AP-Univision Poll compiled the views of 901 Hispanics, which were compared with the results of a separate AP-GfK survey of the general population.

Attention on whether Latinos face unfair treatment has intensified since last month, when Arizona enacted a law requiring local police to ascertain the citizenship of people they suspect of being in the U.S. illegally.

President Barack Obama called the statute "misdirected" Wednesday at a joint news conference with Mexican President Felipe Calderon, and he said the Justice Department will soon complete a review of whether it violates civil rights laws. But others have rallied behind the statute as a needed step with an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants in the U.S.

Lisa Navarrete, vice president of the National Council of La Raza, the Latino advocacy organization, said the poll's findings suggest a silver lining in the country's often bitter debate over immigration.

"For a lot of people, regardless of how they feel about what we should do about immigration, they're recognizing that this community has been singled out and targeted," Navarrete said.

About 40 percent of the Hispanics in the survey said they had experienced much discrimination personally – including just 13 percent who said they had dealt with it a lot.

"I was discriminated against, 'You're just a dumb Mexican,'" said Ric J. Romero, 56, a retiree in Albuquerque, N.M., who said he traces his family's origins to Spain, not Mexico. "Yes, there is still very heavy discrimination."

But Sabino Infante, 62, a college admissions counselor from Hesperia, Calif., said he has never experienced the problem. Infante, who is originally from Mexico, attributed the higher perceptions of prejudice by Hispanics than non-Hispanics to some people having "a chip on their shoulder, an attitude."

Among Hispanics, women are more likely than men to say Latinos suffer discrimination. In addition, Hispanics from cities and rural areas are more likely than those from the suburbs to say Latinos face a lot of prejudice.

Matilde Martinez, 59, a Puerto Rican-born New Yorker, said she believes Mexican immigrants face much mistreatment.

"It causes me a lot of pain," she said in an interview conducted in Spanish. "These people come to work and they do work that the Americans won't do for the little pay they get."

There also are partisan differences. Fifty-five percent of Hispanic Democrats and 38 percent of Hispanic Republicans say there is a lot of discrimination against Hispanics, and Hispanic Democrats are more likely than those in the GOP to say they have personally been affected.

Hispanics in the poll perceived discrimination against other groups a bit more often than non-Hispanics did.

Fifty-seven percent of Latinos and 50 percent of non-Hispanics said blacks are discriminated against. Fifty-eight percent of Hispanics and 48 percent of others said they had observed discrimination against women.

The AP-Univision Poll was conducted by GfK Roper Public Affairs & Media from May 7-12. It involved landline and cell phone interviews with 901 Hispanic adults and had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 5.3 percentage points.

The findings were compared to a separate AP-GfK poll of 1,002 adults from the general population, also by GfK Roper. It involved cell and landline interviews conducted from May 7-11, and had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 4.3 percentage points.