Is the Universe alive and intelligent?

[Borachio]

That's a very interesting article.

 

[bhavv]

Only God knows because he made it all!!!

...

Some 4000-6000 years ago.

IRREFUTIBLE PROOF:

Spoiler :

 

[brennan]

But then there's no possible reason why a sufficiently advanced computer programme wouldn't be conscious too.

Which leads me full circle, back to atoms and molecules being also conscious to some, albeit very-extremely-small extent.

Are atoms and molecules 'sufficiently advanced' information processors then?

Clearly not.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

That brain damage to specific areas leads to quite specific effects on the mind and personality of the person affected is strongly indicative that cognition is an emergent property of the physical brain of course. As is the effect of various chemicals. People are still desperate to find some 'magic' in our heads though...

That there is a mind to begin with is quit magically enough IMO. We may have good reason to say that it needs this and that to eventually emerge. But can we say why it needs this and that? Or are we just to accept that if you do this and that / if this and that happens - BAM - tata - consciousness. That sounds really magical to me. Harry Potter also has to do specific stuff for things to happen.

So you need to have some kind of central processing unit it seems to bring all the parts to a sum.

But I wonder - is this central processing unit also the beginning of sensation? If it is shut off - are there still subjective worlds of experience spooking around in your brain? Perhaps even emotions? Just that they can not be integrated into this "I", this identity which is "you". Sounds kind of horrifying.

 

[gay_Aleks]

One day, a molecule will say to itself: "Wait, why am I doing this? I demand to be free!".

And then the Universe, or at least, the nearby surroundings, will collapse.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Perhaps Hygro was at least partially right and energy is sensation. But you need a brain for identity / consciousness to emerge. That at least answers the why I talked about in my previous post.

 

[Domen]

That brain damage to specific areas leads to quite specific effects on the mind and personality of the person affected is strongly indicative that cognition is an emergent property of the physical brain of course. As is the effect of various chemicals. People are still desperate to find some 'magic' in our heads though...

You are not talking about the mind, cognition and personality but about external expressions of the mind, of cognition and of personality - because only these factors can be measured objectively. Brain damage leads to quite specific effects on external expressions of the mind, cognition and personality. It hinders contact of a person with the external world, we can only measure empirically how much contact with the external world a person has.

 

[brennan]

if you do this and that / if this and that happens - BAM - tata - consciousness. That sounds really magical to me.

No more magical than 2H+O=Water.

Really, your argument is just personal incredulity.

 

[Domen]

2H+O=Water.

Hmmm. I sticked my tongue to the screen of my laptop and licked your "Water", but I can't drink it.

Sorry, these are just man-made letters denoting hydrogen, oxygen and water - but not water itself.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Knowledge gap = magical wizard/aliens did it.

 

[Domen]

Spoiler :

Knowledge




























































































































































































































































































































































































Gap

Now better.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

You are not talking about the mind, cognition and personality but about external expressions of the mind, of cognition and of personality - because only these factors can be measured objectively. Brain damage leads to quite specific effects on external expressions of the mind, cognition and personality. It hinders contact of a person with the external world, we can only measure empirically how much contact with the external world a person has.

I am not sure what your point is.
It is of course correct that we can not directly access the mind. But do you doubt that we have good enough ways to do it via proxies so to sufficiently substantiate what your quote says?

 

[Domen]

I am not sure what your point is.
It is of course correct that we can not directly access the mind. But do you doubt that we have good enough ways to do it via proxies so to sufficiently substantiate what your quote says?

There is a woman whose brain showed zero signs of activity (was technically dead) during her brain operation, but she remembered what happened in details:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

There was also a Discovery Channel (probably) documentary about her case (and some other similar cases), but I can't find it now.

So yes - I think that we don't know what's happening inside a brain even if nothing at all should be happening because a brain shows no signs of activity.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Hmmm. I sticked my tongue to the screen of my laptop and licked your "Water", but I can't drink it.

Sorry, these are just man-made letters denoting hydrogen, oxygen and water - but not water itself.

Technically, there was water. Your saliva. So there's that.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

No more magical than 2H+O=Water.

Not true. We know why 2H+O=Water. Molecules, electrons, reactions. We can explain the why. Not only observe the how.

Really, your argument is just personal incredulity.

Again not true, but I will explain it you.

You could argue that at some point there is always no more answer to the why. Why is there anything to begin with? Is that now magically? No, that is not what I mean. That is in deed just how things are. The fundamental truth of existence. You can not know the answer to existence itself. It doesn't indicate any force of magic.

However, what we do have is the aspiration to answer any question to why a process is taking place. A transformation. We may not have an ultimate answer to why stuff is. But we do want one for why stuff happens.

And if there is none - that is like magic. Until there is one of course, but for why a mind emerges? None in sight. Only the how

 

[El_Machinae]

I'll back Terxpahseyton here. We don't have a theory of consciousness yet. There's a near-ubiquitous consensus that it's an emergent property due to neuronal arrangement, but we don't know the required arrangements in anything other than vague terms.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Spoiler :

Knowledge
...
gap

Now better.

Though, I don't see any magic in that gap. Almost certainly, it's just stuff we haven't learned yet.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Knowledge gap = magical wizard/aliens did it.

sigh

Nuance is not your strong suit, is it.

So yes - I think that we don't know what's happening inside a brain even if nothing at all should be happening because a brain shows no signs of activity.

Hm okay yes there sure are some problems with our indicators. Still, we have people reporting how their feelings changed after this and that physical change to their brain and acting on it. So even if our indicators are not perfect, they still offer some pretty solid and important insight.

 

[Kyriakos]

I'll back Terxpahseyton here. We don't have a theory of consciousness yet. There's a near-ubiquitous consensus that it's an emergent property due to neuronal arrangement, but we don't know the required arrangements in anything other than vague terms.

Would be an understatement to call that an understatement

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I'll back Terxpahseyton here. We don't have a theory of consciousness yet. There's a near-ubiquitous consensus that it's an emergent property due to neuronal arrangement, but we don't know the required arrangements in anything other than vague terms.

To stress my point: is not just that we'd need to exactly understand this arrangement, but that we'd need to understand why this arrangement does what it does. Though knowing the former should eventually reveal the latter.

Unless it is magic