Is there any point in keeping NATO around?

Haven't heard about such policy, BTW. I suspect this might be another interpretation of EU tabloids
Werrrl... this seem legit:
When I speak of Russians and Russian-speaking citizens I am referring to those people who consider themselves part of the broad Russian community, they may not necessarily be ethnic Russians, but they consider themselves Russian people.
[---]
I would like to make it clear to all: our country will continue to actively defend the rights of Russians, our compatriots abroad, using the entire range of available means
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/46131

This kind of thing has been iterated by Putin for a while. The risky bit is in the sheer nebulousness of who these Russians are supposed to be.

And there is by now at least Georgia, Crimea and eastern Ukraine as object lessons of what practical application looks like. Thrice is a habit, and all that...
 
Allow me to apologize for having hurt your collective feelings by seeking security guarantees against Russia.
Our heart is broken, but we hope there is a chance to bring back good old days and again live together in peace.

That's because NATO is a defensive alliance
On paper, yes. If I remember correctly, absolutely all of NATO operations so far were attacks against non-NATO states.

...and all relevant scenarios proceed from the fact that Russia makes claims of irredent population in the Baltic states.
In this case I don't see absolutely any logic in joining NATO. This scenario supposes the war between NATO and Russia over Baltic states, and joining NATO for Sweden will not decrease the chance for them to be dragged into war against Russia, but instead guarantee it. With possible escalation to exchange of tactical nuke strikes against military bases in the area.

Disclaimer: The photograph does not show entire might of Estonian armed forces. There actually was a third column which did not fit on the picture.
I remember Russia was planning to close Estonia and build a bowling club in its place :)

Spoiler :

Admittedly, most of jokes about army, were stupid.
 
This kind of thing has been iterated by Putin for a while. The risky bit is in the sheer nebulousness of who these Russians are supposed to be.
What is nebulous about the fact of having Russian citizenship and living abroad?

Edit:
May be the part "they may not necessarily be ethnic Russians" causes confusion. There are people of ~200 different ethnic groups living in Russia, and Putin stressed that Yakuts, Chechens, Tatars, Ukrainians and all others are members of community too, provided they consider themselves Russian citizens.
 
In this case I don't see absolutely any logic in joining NATO. This scenario supposes the war between NATO and Russia over Baltic states, and joining NATO for Sweden will not decrease the chance for them to be dragged into war against Russia, but instead guarantee it. With possible escalation to exchange of tactical nuke strikes against military bases in the area.
What Russia should be looking for then is a militarily very strong Sweden, and a fortified Gotland.

It's the only terms on which Sweden continuing to be alliance free makes real sense. A militarily weak Sweden is then a liability not just to Sweden. No one wants a power-vaccuum in the middle of the Baltic — not unless they are hoping and planning to at some point fill it themselves that is.

The objective is to not have to fight a war. The key to that is not fighting wars, but deterrence. Si vis pacem, para bellum...

NATO is the best immediate deterrence available against Russia. (There are no scenarios regarded as even possible that does not proceed from Russian aggression in the region — you can like it or not.)

For small nations, as deterrence goes, NATO membership does the job while also being relatively cheap. And it provides capacity that are simply beyond the scope of the abilities of single members.

And the kicker for small nations, and Sweden is one, is that whatever it does, in a worst-case scenario, it will never be enough to actually defeat a concerted effort by a military great power, such as Russia.

And that's leaving the nuclear issue aside. In fact, the only serious deterrence Sweden might count on against hypothetical nuclear black-mail, is to become a nuclear armed state itself. (It was been broached in past history, but the problem is the same now as then — too expensive to build a credible delivery system.) That is to say, NATO is again the obvious available credible deterrence against that as well.

And if you yourself don't quite realize how threatening your scenario involving nukes is, then that in itself speaks volumes about why Russia is trouble for everyone else at this point.

No one wants to fight Russia. Everyone wants to, if need be, be able to deter Russia, so they don't end up with these "polite men in green" or some other permutation of that.

NATO ups the ante for Russia, whatever might or might not consider doing. (Which is one of the uncertanities of the last couple of years of interaction with Russia.) The Swedish discussion right now circles around the problem that in the event of any kind of conflict in the Baltic region too little indicates Sweden can somehow "sit it out". If it's not going to join Russia, and it won't (since if there's actual aggression it will come from Russia), then it can join NATO in advance — and get the deterrence effect — or it can try to join later, without getting the benefit of early membership. That's the case for NATO so far.

Whichever it is, having a proper national defense is a bloody good idea. If anything being reasonably able to fend for yourself increases the likelyhood of an alliance accpeting your application. And no one wants a power vaccuum in the middle of the Baltic...

Right now the Swedish mood seems rather for the continued alliance freedom, and some rearmament. But no one is concerned enough so far to seriously increase military spending. There's been an additional 1,4 billion SEK slated for defense in 2015, but defense spending sits still at around 1,2% of GDP. It may just have stopped dropping. Estimates are that the Swedish armed forces may need som 3 billion SEK/years extra for the next decade, but that's right now politically not acceptable. That's a pretty good gauge of how acute the situation is regarded as.

You can take the basic question to be: "What is the most-cost effective, efficient form of deterrence against Russia we can get?" Any pointers from Russia on that one? Something that does not involve NATO?

It might surprise Russians, but the overarching point of NATO membership if not to be able to fight Russia, but simply to as much as possible remove the risk of at some point have to fight Russia.

Sweden alone offers little in the form of deterrence against Russia. NATO does. At the moment odds are still rather better that Sweden will continue to come down on the side of trying to build credible deterrence on its own.
 
What is nebulous about the fact of having Russian citizenship and living abroad?
Citizenship is not a requirement, and you know it. (Or Russia hands them out at short notice on a needs-be basis, when it wants some citizens somewhere — as has been observed already.)

That must be the most blatant example to date of you making yourself willfully stupid, on the apparent assumption that I must be that dumb.:scan::p

Bit of a waste of time, don't you think?
 
NATO is the best immediate deterrence available against Russia.
This makes sense only in case if Sweden considers the threat to be directly attacked by Russia.
In your described scenario of hypothetical brawl over Baltic States, Sweden instead of being neutral power with good chance of standing aside of conflict, becomes frontline member of anti-Russian alliance. Which is worst possible status in this scenario.

Citizenship is not a requirement, and you know it.
It is a requirement, as explicitly stated. What you read between the lines is your personal concern.

That's must be the most blatant example to date of you making yourself willfully stupid
So, that's simply rejecting my argument in quite obnoxious manner.
Is there anything constructive you can say?
 
You're now arguing in bad faith, and you know it.

I think everyone gets that you may argue in "right or wrong — my country"-mode, but this is a bit different. It's also significant, and I think it should be noticed.

As long as there were simply Putin's statements, everyone let these things slide. Since Georgia in 2008 there's been an observed pattern on how this can apply practice in countries with ethnic Russian minorities, and vestigia terrent... The fundamental problem is that Putin's Russia unilaterelly extends jurisdiction over people it makes claims on into neighbouring countries. It's a political tool, wielded aggressively by Russia.

I'll just submit to whatever readers this gets to decide for themselves what they think of it.
 
It is a requirement, as explicitly stated. What you read between the lines is your personal concern.
So how does all that ruckus over stateless persons in Estonia (i.e. persons without any citizenship, including Russian) fit in here?
 
Look, you don't want NATO being an issue for Russia, the solution is simple. Eliminate Putin and his fellow fascists from power in Russia, Russia cease to threaten its neighbors, NATO becomes irrelevant. It really is that simple.
 
NATO was looking pretty irrelevant in the 90's, fwiw. The fact that they even entertained letting Russia join with observer status speaks volumes to how irrelevant it had become. 9/11 brought back some relevancy but really it was the belligerence of Putin that put NATO back to the front-and-center of European security discussions.
 
Since Georgia in 2008 there's been an observed pattern on how this can apply practice in countries with ethnic Russian minorities
Sigh.
Georgian conflict had nothing to do with rights of ethnic Russian minority. It was the conflict between Georgians and South Ossetians, which Georgia tried to resolve using military force.

There are Putin words about "compatriots" and there are your conjectures about what it may mean. If you are determined to see threat in his words or in his look, nobody can prevent you from doing that.

You're now arguing in bad faith, and you know it.
One sign of a bad faith argument is addressing the opponent's personality instead of answering to his arguments. Keep it civil.

So how does all that ruckus over stateless persons in Estonia (i.e. persons without any citizenship, including Russian) fit in here?
If they didn't get Russian citizenship and don't consider themselves Russians, Putin's statement about compatriots don't apply to them.
It doesn't mean of course, that existence of "stateless" persons in Estonia is ok.
As far as I remember, even EU politicians expressed perplexity over this peculiarities of Baltic States laws.
 
If they didn't get Russian citizenship and don't consider themselves Russians, Putin's statement about compatriots don't apply to them.
Most of them didn't get Russian citizenship, but they still consider themselves Russians.
 
Most of them didn't get Russian citizenship, but they still consider themselves Russians.
If they don't have Russian citizenship, Russia has no legal claims to treat them as Russian citizens. Those who want to have it, should get it, those who unable to get it for some reason, should be assisted. This are technical details, I don't see here problems with determining who is Russian and who is not.

If half of Sweden suddenly would want to apply for Russian citizenship, no problem. They'd have to pass exam and deal with immense bureaucracy, but it's doable :)
 
If half of Sweden suddenly would want to apply for Russian citizenship, no problem. They'd have to pass exam and deal with immense bureaucracy, but it's doable :)

I think you have that backwards comrades !


A New Emigration: The Best Are Leaving

Over the last few months, the beginning of a new wave of Russian emigration has sparked debates in the Russian and Western media

According to Rosstat, the main destination for the flow of Russian emigration is the United States. (In Russia, the net migration rate, i.e., the difference between the number of persons entering and leaving a country per 1,000 inhabitants, is −644; in Germany it’s −588, in Canada it’s −347, and in Finland it’s −283).

When we talk about the qualitative character of today’s emigration, the number of people leaving the country fades into insignificance. Today, it is highly educated and entrepreneurially inclined people who are leaving Russia.

June 2014, “ordinary Russians” had no plans to leave the country, whereas nearly every fourth survey participant with a college degree was contemplating different emigration options. Gudkov considers this emigration wave to be different from previous ones in both its nature and its status: “These are the most secure social groups, people [who have] achieved success, recognition, and wealth in Russia and who understand that they will not be able to live under the growing authoritarianism

http://imrussia.org/en/analysis/nation/2224-a-new-emigration-the-best-are-leaving-part-1
 
If they don't have Russian citizenship, Russia has no legal claims to treat them as Russian citizens.
Indeed.

Will it matter in the slightest, though, in an event treating them as such becomes perceived as expedient by Kremlin?

That question is mostly rhetorical, as you understand.
 
Will it matter in the slightest, though, in an event treating them as such becomes perceived as expedient by Kremlin?
That depends. Original claim was about unclear definition of what people Kremlin considers to be "Russians". If we're talking about Baltic States, the case is clear since there are more than enough people with Russian citizenship. Probably more than "stateless" people.

In case of countries like Sweden, there are simply no stateless residents (which is a good thing in my opinion). So if there are people who Putin referred as Russians, virtually all of them will have Russian citizenship. Otherwise I think nobody in his right mind would suggest that Putin may declare random Swedes as Russians and send army to protect them from something. Suggesting this sounds to me like paranoia, no?
 
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