IS

[Borachio]

There is an easy way to stop ISIS and that is to divide and conqueror.

I kind of agree.

First get them divided amongst themselves and that will weaken them. IT isn't that hard to do, but we don't have the will to do that simple step.

But I'm not sure it wouldn't, or won't, prove very hard to do in practice.

What will unite IS more and more is attacking them with aerial bombardment. So disuniting them will involve not attacking them with aerial bombardment.

This seems a disappearing unlikely scenario, to me.

The more IS attacks the West, through suicide bombings, the greater the public outcry for "revenge" via aerial bombardment will be.

I really think it's going to prove very difficult for IS to lose. We shall have to wait and see what the next few years bring.

 

[MacAttack]

Ironically, none of this would have happened if Saddam were still in place...

There is absolutely no way for you to know that or be able to support that fact. Saddam could have suffered a similar fate that Qaddafi or Mubarak during the Arab Spring revolutions for all we know.

 

[GamezRule]

Without the toppling of Saddam there is no telling if the Arab Spring would have occured.

 

[Commodore]

There is absolutely no way for you to know that or be able to support that fact. Saddam could have suffered a similar fate that Qaddafi or Mubarak during the Arab Spring revolutions for all we know.

But the Arab Spring may never have happened if it weren't for US toppling Saddam. Doing so caused a ripple effect of instability which I believe led to the Arab Spring.

Now seeing what all those revolutions have become, I'm starting to think it would have been better if the Arab Spring never happened; but that's a discussion for another time.

 

[Raijan]

But the Arab Spring may never have happened if it weren't for US toppling Saddam. Doing so caused a ripple effect of instability which I believe led to the Arab Spring.

Now seeing what all those revolutions have become, I'm starting to think it would have been better if the Arab Spring never happened; but that's a discussion for another time.

The same could have been said about the French revolution when it occurred.

Revolutionary processes take time. Five years is too small of a timeline for any real change to occur.

 

[Tahuti]

The same could have been said about the French revolution when it occurred.

Revolutionary processes take time. Five years is too small of a timeline for any real change to occur.

Most revolutions have a tendency to bad, since they often end up destroying relatively benign institutes that may have been development for decades, maybe centuries even, that could have been much better be reformed.

 

[Flying Pig]

Perhaps so, but most revolutions happen when people are denied the opportunity to reform things calmly. People don't risk their lives for a cause when they can get the cause by other means.

 

[Tahuti]

Perhaps so, but most revolutions happen when people are denied the opportunity to reform things calmly. People don't risk their lives for a cause when they can get the cause by other means.

Unless they are misguided, of course. People not necessarily carry out what's in their self-interest or what is just. Interestingly, the first steps of the French revolution were laid by Louis XIV, who made the nobility impotent to ensure his absolutism and in so doing introduced a single point of failure rather than spreading the risks through his fiefs. This significantly weakened the position of the French kings before the populace.

 

[r16]

the Turkish Defence Minister is abroad in some meeting and he says it's not time friends blame each other , he certainly can not mean the US is propping up the Jihadists against the Musselman Turkey ; he wants an end to the ever enlarging database on Ankara's support for ISIL . Which of course doesn't actually need to be 100% true . The New Turkey knows it very well 1% true is so enough . Which kinda manifests itself in the current "revelations" from which we learn that the Congregation and CHP is plotting to assassinate the PM's daughter , who might or might not run in elections for Parliament this June . We supposedly believed Turkish Military officers were in so blatant betrayal that they crashed RPVs so that seperatists in contact could run away and they debated this on public phones and this was recorded by the heroic police ; and the said police now catches the assassination planning on actual Twitter . How it hurts me that ı failed to find something like Facepoke to talk that blue birdy stuff .

which of course comes from the heart rending story of a 20 year old university student girl who fought back the attempt to rape hear . She used pepper spray on the bus driver and there are 3 nail marks on the guy's face . In return he beat her with an iron bar and his friend watching too many CSI shows knew all about DNA sampling . So they cut her hands , wasn't enough also burned the body . Just a chance encounter where Jandarma got suspicious and searched the bus , finding blood stains . The driver said passangers had a fight . Meaning as soon as the girl was declared missing , the bus driver and pals were taken in for a little chat . He naturally says she gave him 100 liras to be driven to Mersin out of the route and made a scene when he duly changed the route and she tripped and fell over and he was like scared . Now that the family doesn't know anything about that , the talk in the coming months will be that she was an immodest woman about to commit adultery in the big town . The guy's extented family seems to be one of jewellers , they are erasing their names off the doors of their shops in shame . Reportedly missing parts of the brain after a traffic accident , the driver has a record , too . His uncle who hasn't spoken to them in years reports he stabbed his father twice and beat up his mother regularly . His wife tried to get a divorce , but feared death and stayed in .

but the real surprise was the dead girl's father . With a keen interest in reading he proves to be an amateur philosopher and talks calmly . ı haven't understood maybe 80% of what he talks about . Except this one thing that his daughter's case should not be a battlecry . 'Cause you know , they live in the South and they all know the glorious Jihadists made the Syrian war even more inevitable by a targeted rape campaign . The father immediately "stops" the Goverment Minister responsible for the relations with the EU , who said he would shoot the driver if it was his daughter . Presumably hoping for an adverse reaction from the EU , so that the voters can be convinced for the need for a "strong" Turkey , unified under the enlightened guidance of the Party . Which of course sees the talk about the incident as a conspiracy ; now that there are sure to be people who will report the economy might have grown 3 times but the number for female murders is up 14 times .

and the Smarties had some moments , too . There is this feodal singer dude , who talks of bringing 10 000 people to any fight and naturally he chatted online that it was all the fault of the secular education where the lack of morals caused attacks on scantily clad women . He was made to cry on TV , in a show where retired referees cater to the general lumpenism of the country . Now that he's a staunch supporter of the Party , the Party hits back , primarily accusing a TV star who cemented her fame with the portrayal of a rape victim . Her fault is primarily due her post on an online account where she talks of the times she was really harassed ... Can not happen in a Muslim country , right ?

that's why today's glorious news is the one on the female vice-principle who planned to assemble a harassment squad of teenage male students to pinch mini-skirt wearing teenage female students so that they will be modestly clad . And no surprise in that she is depicted as an "open head" woman ; if she had a turban , that wouldn't have served the Party . Never minding the glorious fighting in the Parliament that seems to regularly result in an Opposition MP hospitalized daily .

or the case where this shop owner got angry after some snowball hit the window panes of his shop and went out with a baseball bat . The 15 or so Lefties took the bat out of his hand so he produced a knife and killed an out-of-work journalist . In a neighbourhood where supposedly there is wall graffiti on the concept of White Turks Raus .

how's this all nonsense ever related to ISIL ? Presumably it would be even more gross to discuss the claim the Tomb of Suleyman Şah has been surrendered to ISIL , on the grounds that Washington and Ankara sealed the deal on the training of so called Moderates against ISIL . Or at least one soldier is held captive . It was all amazing to read the National Intelligence service warning on ISIL cells in Turkey and they could attack . Can't say what's the need , isn't it obvious the Tomb is not the only piece of Turkish soil to be surrendered ?

 

[Kyriakos]

^RIP @that girl. Horrible fate.
The cab driver and his friend sound like monsters.

 

[r16]

that's what we call a minibüs in Turkey , a van seating about 15 , 20 if extra large . She was a student from evening classes , naturally it's all dark when the lessons end and she got onboard with a female student friend and classmate . That friend naturally got off around whereever her house was and the victim was thus the only person onboard . And unfortunately attractive , too . The bus driver no doubt assumed he could talk his way out in court , if she had lived . Now that everybody knows what happens in such cases . Some policemen years back raped a Russian married to a Turkish citizen and got almost scotfree because she had bought a pack of condoms for home .

once again , allow me to say that God protects Turkey now that the victim was from an area where Easterners live , possibly of Alevi roots .

and of course , let's not forget the twice stabbed father , who was dragooned in for the burning . They are men enough to rape , lose head when it comes to losing dead body .

 

[gay_Aleks]

Oh, Bulgarian media. You never get old, do you?

It seems that the ISIS is planning to "invade" Bulgaria, according to Turkish intelligence. I wish 'em luck; they'll wish that they stayed in Syria, cuz there's no more miserable place than here.

I can only imagine the discussion that followed this decisions.

"Allahu Ackbar, and may God bless us. We today shall discuss which place to invade.."
"Surely, you must be planning to invade Spain, in a revere reconquista to recover the city of Cordoba!"
"No."
"Oh, maybe Italy, Take over Sicily, to whom it belongs. Heard weather's pretty nice this time of the year."
"No."
"Ah! I see it. You're planning a deep strike into the rows of the evil Westeners, and only one place remains! That is Sweden, rotten to the core, and deserving some good old fundamentalism!"
"No."
"I think London already got bombed by Hezbollah.."
"No."
"Allah, I give up. Where do we go?"
"Bulgaria."
"Did he say Bosnia? I think he said Bosnia."
"No, look. Easily penetrable, a crossroad of nations, with large T-"
*suddenly, everyone starts violently kicking the leader*
"Okay, people! We go to pretty Sicily, where we'll have a nice vacation for the whole year!"

 

[GoodSarmatian]

How much coast do they control ? Do they have a Navy ?

Oh, Bulgarian media. You never get old, do you?

It seems that the ISIS is planning to "invade" Bulgaria, according to Turkish intelligence. I wish 'em luck; they'll wish that they stayed in Syria, cuz there's no more miserable place than here.

Ever been to Bosnia ?

 

[Borachio]

Well, IS are also violent towards other Muslims who are not fundamentalist enough and have alienated other Muslim powers such as Iran, Jordan, and Egypt to name a few. They have also been denounced by other large Muslim nations like Indonesia. So technically it does not have the backing of even a majority of Muslims, or even a sizable portion. If you look at their recruiting strategy, they are targeting disaffected youths and pressing children into military action.

The moment you find it necessary to put weapons in children's hands and press them into action, your cause has lost all legitimacy.

I agree. That is the situation at the moment.

But I think IS and its affiliates (if it has any, they seem quite content to alienate everyone) are trying very hard to polarize the world. And it's not clear to me that every other Muslim will ostracize them.

20,000* foreigners , it's estimated, from all over have already joined them in Iraq. That's quite a lot of people and is just the tip of the iceberg of potential, and actual, supporters.

Who knows how this will pan out? It could be that enthusiasm for IS evaporates over the next few years, or it could be that, as military action against them fans the flames, IS just grows and grows.

As for children being pressed into service, active soldiers of every stripe are always young people in any case.

*Strangely comparable to the number fighting in the International Brigades during the Spanish Civil War. (Another lost cause, perhaps?)

 

[Raijan]

I agree. That is the situation at the moment.

But I think IS and its affiliates (if it has any, they seem quite content to alienate everyone) are trying very hard to polarize the world. And it's not clear to me that every other Muslim will ostracize them.

Go to any mosque and I can guarantee you that people will tell you that ISIS is not Islamic. Also take into account that there are Muslims that are actually fighting ISIS at this very moment. If by ostracise you mean every Muslim has to take a gun and go fight ISIS, then yes, very few Muslims will do that, because many of them fear for their lives like any other human being. But without a doubt, most Muslims isolate themselves from ISIS as much as possible.

20,000* foreigners , it's estimated, from all over have already joined them in Iraq. That's quite a lot of people and is just the tip of the iceberg of potential, and actual, supporters.

I bet that most of these foreigners entered the conflict back in the summer, well before they started beheading journalists, mutilating bodies and making slaves.

Remember, the intention of many Muslims who left to fight in Syria during that time was that they would be fighting to get rid of Assad's regime, seeing that it was tyranny. ISIS at that time was seen as the most efficient group in fighting Assad's regime. That was what made Muslims receptive to ISIS.

Now seeing that ISIS is as brutal, if not worse than Assad's regime, there are very few Muslims who want to join them. ISIS now only manages to recruit individuals who were deeply ostrasized by their community to begin with, and have various issues.

In fact, there are foreign recruits now seeking to leave or are refusing to do what their command asks as they see those commands as not Islamic. So they get killed. Here's a news article about that:
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Mi...ted-100-foreigners-trying-to-quit-report.ashx

As well, many are defecting to other rebel groups or fleeing to Turkey, seeing that ISIS does not treat them as brothers and would rather have them strap a bomb and die instead:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...turkey-or-rival-militant-groups-10034138.html

So again, I doubt that ISIS has much support now from the Muslim Community.

 

[Borachio]

I bet that most of these foreigners entered the conflict back in the summer, well before they started beheading journalists, mutilating bodies and making slaves.

Remember, the intention of many Muslims who left to fight in Syria during that time was that they would be fighting to get rid of Assad's regime, seeing that it was tyranny. ISIS at that time was seen as the most efficient group in fighting Assad's regime. That was what made Muslims receptive to ISIS.

So again, I doubt that ISIS has much support now from the Muslim Community.

Let's hope you're right.

But, as far as I can make out, ISIS isn't particularly different from the Wahhabism of Saudi Arabia: a regime which enjoys widespread support.

And beheadings, as a tactic by terrorist groups, date further back than ISIS. Iirc they first made an appearance in 2002, with Al Qaeda.

 

[Raijan]

Let's hope you're right.

But, as far as I can make out, ISIS isn't particularly different from the Wahhabism of Saudi Arabia: a regime which enjoys widespread support.

And beheadings, as a tactic by terrorist groups, date further back than ISIS. Iirc they first made an appearance in 2002, with Al Qaeda.

That's not an accurate assumption to make. Most Muslims actually hate Saudi Arabia, being that it is one of the richest Muslim majority states in the world, yet cannot spare some of its wealth to less fortunate Muslim majority states, even though it is supposed to be an Islamic state which is committed to helping other Muslims.

The non-Saudi Arabians in that country that are Muslims are also treated like crap, and might as well be second class citizens. Forget citizen, you cannot even be a citizen of Saudi Arabia unless your parents were. Assuming that most Muslims support Saudi Arabia probably stems from paranoia or from not communicating enough with Muslims to know what they think.


And regardless, practically all Muslims do not tolerate the idea of punishing someone that is innocent, such as journalists. I also doubt that most Muslims are receptive towards Al-Qaeda, given that they and ISIS share a similar background.

Again, most mosques will kick out people who hold or share extremist views. These people are ostracised from the Muslim Community, which ironically leads to them going on the internet and trying to seek out other extremists.

 

[Borachio]

Oh right. OK. That's interesting.

So, what are you saying now? That potential jihadists should not be ostracized?

 

[Raijan]

Potential jihadists extremists should be identified as early as possible, and be educated as to why joining groups like ISIS actually harms Islam. They should also be monitored by the Muslim community itself.

Kicking them out makes them feel alienated, and ISIS relies on this kind of isolation to convince someone to join them, since if a person is isolated even from the Muslim Community, then they hear no counter arguments, and that allows recruiters to say whatever they want without it being challenged.

 

[Commodore]

The same could have been said about the French revolution when it occurred.

Revolutionary processes take time. Five years is too small of a timeline for any real change to occur.

True, but I think it is pretty safe to assume these revolutions are going to turn out bad given the recent history and current political, social, and economic trends in the Arab world.