IS

[Raijan]

True, but I think it is pretty safe to assume these revolutions are going to turn out bad given the recent history and current political, social, and economic trends in the Arab world.

I hate being metaphorical, but dawn happens after the darkest hour. I guess I'm being too optimistic.

Remember, the French revolution caused instability throughout France, led to oligopolies, terror of the civilian population, complete destruction of the social structure, an authoritarian rule, and it also led to major instability throughout Europe, not to mention that in the end, the very same government system it tried to abolish was reinstituted.

The Arab Spring is nowhere close to competing with the events of the French Revolution in terms of destruction, not yet at least.

 

[Borachio]

Oh, I don't know. There's some striking parallels. What with the beheadings and summary executions in Western Iraq.

And the numbers of killed aren't incomparable either.

Many thousands of civilians died during the Terror, with estimates ranging from 16,000 to 40,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution

 

[r16]

Oh, Bulgarian media. You never get old, do you?

It seems that the ISIS is planning to "invade" Bulgaria, according to Turkish intelligence. I wish 'em luck; they'll wish that they stayed in Syria, cuz there's no more miserable place than here.

I can only imagine the discussion that followed this decisions.

"Allahu Ackbar, and may God bless us. We today shall discuss which place to invade.."
"Surely, you must be planning to invade Spain, in a revere reconquista to recover the city of Cordoba!"
"No."
"Oh, maybe Italy, Take over Sicily, to whom it belongs. Heard weather's pretty nice this time of the year."
"No."
"Ah! I see it. You're planning a deep strike into the rows of the evil Westeners, and only one place remains! That is Sweden, rotten to the core, and deserving some good old fundamentalism!"
"No."
"I think London already got bombed by Hezbollah.."
"No."
"Allah, I give up. Where do we go?"
"Bulgaria."
"Did he say Bosnia? I think he said Bosnia."
"No, look. Easily penetrable, a crossroad of nations, with large T-"
*suddenly, everyone starts violently kicking the leader*
"Okay, people! We go to pretty Sicily, where we'll have a nice vacation for the whole year!"

ah , don't worry there are plenty of Armoured Corps set aside for desert type American proxies as well . Plus the Amphibious ones and the flying ones and the dragon riding ones .

 

[r16]

'cause ...

the Little Imperialist finally succeeds . In his glorious vision for the country which he played the ropes of the PM to achieve . The Tomb of Süleyman Şah evacuated . Turkish land surrendered to our sunnier Sunni brothers . Yet at the same time Syrian territory occupied . Even more glorious the operation carried out by the co-operation of dear seperatists . With the attendant imagery of 3 dudes carrying out a replica flag raising on Mount Suribachi . The current Turkish Foreign Minister is booming with the news that the infidel Westerners are much impressed by the drive of 39 tanks and 57 IFVs over 30 kilometers . Which is an awesome success and we must teach them the formula of such glorious military operations . They indeed went into Syria , playing Mehter over the loudspeakers and blew the Tomb up . 'Cause it would hurt the most Muslim of all if ISIL came up blew the place up .

the guy who started the media hype is Metehan Demir , one of those proxy journos who criticize the Goverment at minor points and returns to full support where it counts . He was on the bench for a while , since the Congregation Police had taped him talking with a Goverment Minister . The said Minister was recorded that he would just google a Verse from the Kuran and twit on Fridays and the stupid people would just take him as a good Muslim . Insulting the Kuran is deadly in Turkey , only if you are not from the Party or Congregation for that matter .

and the only people who count , the dear seperatists are loving it . Ankara has finally broken the hold of the Republic and has started giving away land . If this sounds harsh , a Party lackey with the headscarve had the toughest task . Now back in 1970s when the Syrians were building a dam on the Euprates or whatever and the original site of the Tomb would be flooded , Ankara had to look for some military delegation and the choice fell on Col. Ergenekon . Oh yeah , even if he had no idea on the "Spirit of Süleyman Şah" , something which he had to act in . Neither the entire Turkish Foreign Ministry for that matter but anyhow . The talks began and Syrians were in a bad mood . The Colonel was in a quandry and decided maybe it was that . That being banging his fist on the table . The Party lackey then goes to recite that Veli Küçük the head of the ETÖ , the coup plotters , the evil Ergenekonist terrorists was once an officer in a platoon the Colonel commanded . You see , surrendering land can also be justified with a yearning for Democracy or whatever . Never minding Veli Küçük being a prime asset why the Party lackey in person could wag her finger and silence the TV Debate opponents back in the days the Congregation and the Party had this critical mass to arrest people on a whim . The reason that there is an ETÖ is because America chose it that way , Ergenekon being some Turkish myth where people run to after massacred , hide for a while and come back even stronger , the intention being wholesale massacre of Turks and all . The bang on the table also helped , so that Americans could work on each officer to see who liked the approach and would like to repeat it ; under American guidance .

you certainly wouldn't expect the Party lackey to mention the code name for the Operation is kinda off as well . Now that the Şah Fırat sounds perilously close to some MHP "activist" Fırat ... who was stabbed to death by the seperatists on the day before . The seperatist party leader even kinda talked against it and said it was conspiracy . The Almost racists think the same way , actually ; they are used to fights in universities where the Police holds the doors and the "Leftie Majorities" in the area are swamped by the thugs brought in . But this was the exam time and despite the demands of the local MHP dudes , there was no Police in sight ; the claims are the Police actaully refused to put the wounded into a Patrol car and speed off to hospital . This is indeed a New Turkey .

 

[Tigranes]

IS kidnaps 56 Christians of Assyrian minority in northern Syria

English.news.cn 2015-02-24 06:00:37

DAMASCUS, Feb. 24 (Xinhua) -- At least 90Syrian Christians of the Assyrian minority have been confirmed kidnapped by the Islamic State (IS) militants from two Assyrian towns in northern Syria, a monitoring group reported Tuesday.

The IS militants snatched Monday the 90 Assyrians from the towns of Tal Shamiram and Tal Hurmoz in the countryside of the predominantly-Kurdish city of Hasaka in northern Syria, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights cited sources as saying.

It noted that the two towns are close to the town of Tal Tamer, where intense clashes have recently been raging between the IS and Kurdish militants of the Peoples' Protection Units (YPG).

Meanwhile, the Observatory added that 14 IS fighters were killed by the U.S.-led anti-terror coalition in the southern countryside of al-Qamishly province in northern Syria.

The IS repeatedly attacked minority groups across Syria and most recently in Libya, where the terrorist-designated group snatched and executed over 20Egyptian Coptic Christians, branding them the "worshipers of the cross."

 

[MacAttack]

Why not instead of wasting so much effort on kidnapping folks, they repair damaged infrastructure from battle? That would be a much better use of their time. Will also stimulate the local economy. But they will not, because it would be too much like right.

My point is, they really, seriously, need to reevaluate their priorities if they want to be taken in the least bit remotely as a country in the world stage and not just a group of thugs.

 

[Borachio]

I think they're going through a learning process.

It may be that they disappear without trace in the next few years, or it may be that they successfully form a new state.

I don't think there are any handbooks on how to go about nation building. All of the current nations seem to have been begun by amateurs.

IS seem remarkably adept at finding funds one way or another. Bank robbery (or just finding cash left in banks), kidnapping, selling antiquities, oil, etc.

 

[Tigranes]

IS are the nazis of our days. The sooner Arabs understand it the better. Just because Hitler was using words like Providence all the time -- it did not stop all the good Christians to fight nazis to death. Why in a world this has to be US led coalition? Where is Arab League when one needs them? The League's main goal is to draw closer the relations between member States and co-ordinate collaboration between them, to safeguard their independence and sovereignty, and to consider in a general way the affairs and interests of the Arab countries. Iraq is an Arab League country, right? With US out of Iraq -- let Arabs prove they can be grown ups and can safeguard sovereignty of their member state. IS ideology needs to be marginalized just like Nazy ideology, which used to be quite popular in Britain, for example, before the war. World really need someone like Arab Churchill, or at least Nasser. Who knows about Nabil Elaraby? And yet he is the secretary general of organization of 22 countries with combined $3.335 trillion GDP, 350 mln population and total area of 5,070,420 sq mi.

 

[MacAttack]

The impression I get from Arab countries is that they could care less what happens to their neighbors, so long as they don't lose any money over it. And that includes spending money to send troops to keep the peace. The League is just a cover so that the other countries to the West and the East of them don't get on their case for a lack of regional solidarity.

I also do not have a solution to their problem because they need to take the initiative and and start working together to get something, anything that is fruitful going. The Arab countries could not even dream of putting something together that resembles the EU, NATO or even NAFTA, or Mercosur to a lesser extent.

 

[kramerfan86]

ISIS are in reality a terrorist group despite their claims of statehood and their actions are geared towards that reality. it is not shocking at all when presented with a choice to nation build and a choice to terrorize they terrorize. It is why they will slowly be consumed and destroyed by actual states.

 

[Borachio]

I can imagine the same things being said of the Haganah.

 

[Commodore]

I can imagine the same things being said of the Haganah.

Please stop trying to legitimize ISIS with your moral equivalizing. They are just about the worst types of people on the entire planet given their actions and do not deserve any recognition from the international community in any way.

And so what if the same could be said of the Haganah? Even if we assume it was a mistake to allow them to succeed and form Israel as a legitimate state, does that automatically mean we are obligated to make the same mistake again by allowing ISIS to form their own state? No, the only thing ISIS deserves is our bombs and we should keep bombing them and their supporters until they are either dead or they give up on their stupid goal of forming a caliphate ruled by Islamic law. If they want that, they can move to Iran or Saudi Arabia; they don't need to murder thousands of innocent people.

The thing that really gets me about ISIS is if they really were interested in creating a legitimate state, there were many more peaceful and legal ways to go about it. The fact that they haven't used those methods tells me that all they are interested in is killing and torturing as many people as they possibly can and are only using this stupid "Islamic state" crap as an excuse to rape, torture, and murder.

 

[Phrossack]

Please stop trying to legitimize ISIS with your moral equivalizing. They are just about the worst types of people on the entire planet given their actions and do not deserve any recognition from the international community in any way.



And so what if the same could be said of the Haganah? Even if we assume it was a mistake to allow them to succeed and form Israel as a legitimate state, does that automatically mean we are obligated to make the same mistake again by allowing ISIS to form their own state? No, the only thing ISIS deserves is our bombs and we should keep bombing them and their supporters until they are either dead or they give up on their stupid goal of forming a caliphate ruled by Islamic law. If they want that, they can move to Iran or Saudi Arabia; they don't need to murder thousands of innocent people.



The thing that really gets me about ISIS is if they really were interested in creating a legitimate state, there were many more peaceful and legal ways to go about it. The fact that they haven't used those methods tells me that all they are interested in is killing and torturing as many people as they possibly can and are only using this stupid "Islamic state" crap as an excuse to rape, torture, and murder.

This badly needed to be said.

I'd just add that American air strikes cannot do that much to solve this problem; an Iraqi state that is able and willing to stop the genocidal slavers in its territory and properly address Sunni grievances looks like the only answer.

 

[Tigranes]

ISIS are in reality a terrorist group despite their claims of statehood and their actions are geared towards that reality. it is not shocking at all when presented with a choice to nation build and a choice to terrorize they terrorize. It is why they will slowly be consumed and destroyed by actual states.

What needs to happen for terror group to transform into nazy state? Terrorists are not greeted as liberators by 1.5 million cities. The very reason it is so hard to destroy IS fighters from air is because them being around civilians who are friendly to IS.

It has been long asserted that Iraq is in fact 3 states in one: Shia, Sunni Arabs, and Sunni Kurds. Some Sunni Arabs in Syria and northern Iraqi Sunni tribes are ok with IS ruling over them. They see them as their Sunni Arab state, in contrast with the rest of the Iraq. Who gives legitimacy to brutal Al Baghdadi as the ruler of the people? His international bandits? No. People of Mosul and Ar-Raqqah themselves. Otherwise they would act against him the same way they acted against brutal Assad and brutal Maliki. Arabs of Islamic State support Al Baghdadi if not the same way then similar in the way Germans supported Hitler.

 

[Commodore]

This badly needed to be said.

I'd just add that American air strikes cannot do that much to solve this problem; an Iraqi state that is able and willing to stop the genocidal slavers in its territory and properly address Sunni grievances looks like the only answer.

Sometimes I wish I didn't mess up my knee and could still serve in the Army and do something to fight these guys.

I read an article about a month ago about some surfer with no military training or experience who went over there to join the Kurds in their fight against ISIS. They accepted him and are training him before they send him to actual battlefields. His reason for going to fight was that he saw what ISIS was doing and it made him physically ill and he just couldn't live with himself if he didn't do something about it.

If I didn't have a family to take care of or if I thought they could survive without me for a while, you can bet I'd be over there fighting alongside the Kurds as well. If they are willing to accept someone with no military training, I'm sure they'd love to have someone who is not only trained, but has actual combat experience as well.

 

[kramerfan86]

I can imagine the same things being said of the Haganah.

Well when the british give ISIS a mandate and the UN general assembly votes on a plan on how to divide territory between ISIS and Syria/Iraq ISIS will have the same nation legitimacy as proto-Israel did. Until then they simply dont.

 

[Phrossack]

And ISIS has just reportedly kidnapped 90 Assyrian Christians in NE Syria. Any guesses as to what they'll do to them?

 

[Ajidica]

Well when the british give ISIS a mandate and the UN general assembly votes on a plan on how to divide territory between ISIS and Syria/Iraq ISIS will have the same nation legitimacy as proto-Israel did. Until then they simply dont.

Borachio does have a valid point in that the three groups that were merged to form the IDF -the Lehi*, the Irgun, and the Haganah- were widely considered terrorist organization with the Lehi undertaking the assassination of the UN mediator, Count Folke Bernadotte along with numerous other acts of sabotage and rather quite horrible acts. (It was not uncommon for Lehi and Haganah militants to hide landmines beneath British and foreign soldiers they killed so that when their comrades went to collect the body, the landmines would go off.)
NOTE: I am NOT saying that the IDF or IS are in any meaningful way comparable, nor that the Jewish militant groups in Mandate Palestine are in any useful metric like IS. IS is an intolerant dangerous militant group masquerading as a state.

*So, I was doing some reading on these guys. It appears that the Lehi styled themselves "National Bolsheviks" and tried to make an alliance with the Nazis to fight the British.

 

[kramerfan86]

Oh Im not denying the Israeli groups started off as terrorist groups, but there was an actual legitimate mantle for statehood for them to assume control over. There is no state mantle for ISIS to assume control over so I do not feel when discussing the terrorist group or state argument it is quite as relevant as he thinks.

 

[Ajidica]

Oh Im not denying the Israeli groups started off as terrorist groups, but there was an actual legitimate mantle for statehood for them to assume control over.

Nitpicking: The Israeli government granted authority by the UN partition invited the militant groups and paramilitary forces to form the nascent IDF. The UN didn't grant statehood to the militant groups.

There is no state mantle for ISIS to assume control over so I do not feel when discussing the terrorist group or state argument it is quite as relevant as he thinks.

It isn't unusual for countries to be created after vicious guerilla/terrorist campaigns. The Portuguese Colonial Wars, the Rhodesian Bush War, and the South African Bush War in South-West Africa/Namibia come to mind. Certainly they were nowhere near as brutal as IS; but what sets IS apart then is their level of brutality and not their nature as a terrorist/militant organization.