Islam and Europe

[AceChilla]

The recent suicide bombings in the heart of London are a sympthom of a bigger problem in Europe. The continued growt of islam in conjuction with the radicalisation of Muslims worldwide are a cause of tention in almost every Western (European) society with a large muslim population. Inspired by the Al Qaida terrorists and inflamed by the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan by EU and American troops parts of the muslim youth is turning itself against the society they were born and grew up in. Link

I see it around me were I live. The muslims guys I've grew up with and have gone to school with are also radicalising. The debate about Islam in our society seems to have a radicalising effect on them. Tonight i've talked with some guys I have known for almost all my life telling me they actually dispise our society and support the murderded of a Dutch filmmaker last year wholeheartely. I thought they were joking but found they were serious about this. I asked if they also supported Al Qaida, they didn't know but they did understand them they said.

On the other hand I see original Dutch youth also radicalising. Tensions in mixed schools are growing. "Muslim youth terrorising schools" was a newspaper headline 2 weeks ago. The reaction to this is a growt of the white power movement and hate against foreigners. When van Gogh was murdered some mosques and other Islamic buildings were set on fire or where spray painted with "white pride world wide" on it. Tensions are growing between the different groups.

Holland is certainly not the only Western European society with this problem. I think we are just one of the first Western society's where these problems which are simmering in the whole of Western Europe have come to the surface first. France, Brittain, Germany we are all going to face this challange and closing your eyes or trivialising these facts isn't going to help one bit.

The growt of muslim communities in Europe is fast. In 2020 half of Amsterdam will be muslim, same for other big cities in Europe. What does this mean for the future, how are we going to hold our society's togheter?

 

[sysyphus]

Dialogue between communities, with open minds.

 

[Evil Tyrant]

It means that the next twenty-five years will be, "interesting"

 

[luiz]

Apparently integration is failing in Western Europe, and that's sad for humanity. I was quite shocked to know that those bombers were born and raised in England. Obviously there is something really wrong going on, otherwise those folks would not sacrifice their own lifes to kill severall of their countrymen.

I don't pretend to know the answer, and I'm also puzzled as to why is integration failing in Europe while it worked in other places.

 

[Keirador]

I recently made a rather controversial thread about freedom in Islamic countries. This, this, is what made me ask the question. Muslim population are growing at a break-neck pace in European countries, and destablization seems to follow these enlarging enclaves of Muslims. The presence of Muslim radicals incites white nationalist radicals, and the two groups antagonize each other in a vicious spiral of violence, hatred, and terrorism. When we look at the generally less-free nature of the Islamic world compared to the secular or Christian world, doesn't it alarm anyone else that Muslims may soon have a majority in several European countries? Or, worse, could an explosion of Muslim predominance in European countries create a white nationalist backlash that opened the door for neo-Nazis to gain power and popularity?

I know, I know it's a horrible thing to say, about as politically incorrect as can be possible. But, even though I try try try to be open-minded, I can't help but greeting the idea of a Muslim majority in European nations with apprehension and fear. Would those once democratic and prosperous countries go the way of the overwhelming majority of Muslim-dominated countries? Please believe that I don't like thinking this way, it makes me feel very uncomfortable. But, from all indicators, these insidious thoughts would appear to be at least partially vindicated. Is anyone else at least partially concerned over the simultaneous growth of Muslim populations, Islamic radicalism, and the resulting rise of white nationalist violence in the Western world?

 

[King Alexander]

The growth of muslim communities in Europe is fast. In 2020 half of Amsterdam will be muslim, same for other big cities in Europe. What does this mean for the future, how are we going to hold our society's togheter?

Half of Amsterdam? That means also half of Holland after a while, right? For the other countries it'll take much more time than in Holland.
We're not going to hold our society, as it is today: it's going to change. We'll no lnger belong to the 'West', but be in an intermediate state, until we become fully 'Middle Eastern'!

Then, something will happen, and Bush will find another reason(as an excuse) to invade Europe!
Question: if Bush invaded Europe and integrated all of them with the U.S, at the excuse that the first promoted the terror(as I descibed above), do you think that the U.S stars in their flag should increase, and if so, how many more?
Will they'll only count the 'new' or they'll also count the 'old' Europe's countries?

Then, after some 20 years or so, China will start massively immigrating to Europe, and the Muslims will then become the minority. Then, Europe will become fully 'Eastern'! So, I say, China is the future

P.S.: ok, I'll shut up for now

 

[WickedSmurf]

It means that we need to get Turkey into EU as soon as possible to level things out.
Oh wait...

 

[King Alexander]

It means that we need to get Turkey into EU as soon as possible to level things out.
Oh wait...

You know, the former Turkish Prime Mister Ozal(spelling?) had said some 20 years before, "we don't need to have wars/debates with Greece(or other EU countries), because as our population grows rapidly, we'll 'conquer' them in peace time". Was he a prophet?

 

[WickedSmurf]

You know, the former Turkish Prime Mister Ozal(spelling?) had said some 20 years before, "we don't need to have wars/debates with Greece(or other EU countries), because as our population grows rapidly, we'll 'conquer' them in peace time". Was he a prophet?

I don't believe in the concept of prophets, but I do think the Turkish PM has a valid point there.

 

[King Alexander]

I don't believe in the concept of prophets, but I do think the Turkish PM has a valid point there.

Hey, I don't believe in the concept of prophets either(I had to clarify my beliefs ).
Do you know a better expression that I could use? English is not my first language, as you know.

on topic: yes, I also think he had a valid point, as I now see the situation.

 

[Gabryel Karolin]

doesn't it alarm anyone else that Muslims may soon have a majority in several European countries?

Yes, yes it does. Very much so.

Intergration is failing. Or, more accurately; it never really worked in European countries (with the possible exeption of Britain). We need to find a way to assimilate all those immigrant Arabs into European culture and values. Until then we need to heavily restrict immigration.

 

[WickedSmurf]

Hey, I don't believe in the concept of prophets either(I had to clarify my beliefs ).
Do you know a better expression that I could use? English is not my first language, as you know. <snip>

I know you're not the religious type. Didn't really intend anything at all with that remark.

Don't ask me about expressions, English isn't my first lingo either.

 

[Keirador]

Question: if Bush invaded Europe and integrated all of them with the U.S, at the excuse that the first promoted the terror(as I descibed above), do you think that the U.S stars in their flag should increase, and if so, how many more?
Will they'll only count the 'new' or they'll also count the 'old' Europe's countries?

Yes, unlike the EU flag, which has a fixed number of stars, our flag has a fixed number of stripes but the number of stars always reflects the current number of states. However many states belong to the US, that's how many stars we have. Territories of the US which are not states (Puerto Rico, Samoa, Guam, etc.) do not get stars.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

Is anyone else at least partially concerned over the simultaneous growth of Muslim populations, Islamic radicalism, and the resulting rise of white nationalist violence in the Western world?

Not really, but then I've met lots of Bosnian Muslims who I respected for their modern beliefs. Just simple integration is needed, which is not easy, but very possible. It's worked for countless cultures in America.

 

[Shevek]

Intergration is failing. Or, more accurately; it never really worked in European countries (with the possible exeption of Britain). We need to find a way to assimilate all those immigrant Arabs into European culture and values. Until then we need to heavily restrict immigration.

If it were just integration that's failing how come that there are non muslim radicals around? Leftwing radicals, rightwing radicals, you name it. OK they don't do suicide bombings, but for instance in Berlin there is a lot of rioting going on ( like 1. May).

Maybe the underlying problem lies more in our society than in the islamic faith?
Most people in my experience crave some spirituality, some sense, some purpose in their life.
Western society seems to give them shallow TV, no jobs, porn and a lot of other unsavoury things instead. There is certainly nowhere a grand vision that I can see. Nothing for people to lash onto.
Which might also explain the rise in Christian fundalism in the US.

Anyway, this is just a feeling of mine.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

What does this mean for the future, how are we going to hold our society's togheter?

First and foremost, you should be be stopping any further immigration from Muslim countries. Thats clearly not going to happen for politically correct reasons.That being the case, the outcome isnt hard to figure out. Explosive birthrates among the Muslim immigrant community, and ever declining birthrates in the native population? Couple that with unceasing immigration from the Muslim world? Just do the math.

Dialogue between communities, with open minds.

As Drunk said, the Muslims he refers to were born and raised in Holland, he grew up with them. Dialogue? What is there left to say, that hasnt been said already during their lifetimes in Holland?

Maybe the underlying problem lies more in our society than in the islamic faith?

Why? I dont understand this instinctive reaction people in the West have. Somebody attacks you, and you apologize. They blow up your civilians and you believe your society is at fault, not thiers If I live 1000 years I'll never understand it.

 

[IglooDame]

Why? I dont understand this instinctive reaction people in the West have. Somebody attacks you, and you apologize. They blow up your civilians and you believe your society is at fault, not thiers If I live 1000 years I'll never understand it.

On this I entirely concur. While it might be worthwhile to look inward and ask "why are these people attacking us, and can/should we minimize that cause?" it is completely goofy to accept the blame for the attacks.

 

[col]

I listened to an interseting discussion this morning about the spread of islamofascism in the world. There is beginning to be a growing feeling among the moslem population themselves that their religion has been hijacked, that hideous acts are being done in their name, that they have to fight and reclaim their own religion from the fascists. Time will tell whether the moslem population has the will and the means to eradicate the cancer that grows within their body.

 

[ComradeDavo]

how are we going to hold our society's togheter?

Ban faith schools. No religious funding whatsoever. Religion is what causes these divides, belief in god(s) that do not exist. We must show our children that we can live for each other, rather than some false god, that we are all one race, that these religious preachers are false prophets and that the only true faith is belief in humanity.

We must end both Islamic and Christian fundamentalism.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

On this I entirely concur. While it might be worthwhile to look inward and ask "why are these people attacking us, and can/should we minimize that cause?" it is completely goofy to accept the blame for the attacks.

Like I said in another thread, I was completely blown away by PMs Questions the other day. If you had woken up from a ten year coma, you would have thought that Christians had committed an atrocity in London against Muslims, not the other way around. They were all apologizing and prostrating themselves before the Muslim community. To such an extent that it almost bordered on satire, or sarcasm.

I listened to an interseting discussion this morning about the spread of islamofascism in the world. There is beginning to be a growing feeling among the moslem population themselves that their religion has been hijacked, that hideous acts are being done in their name, that they have to fight and reclaim their own religion from the fascists. Time will tell whether the moslem population has the will and the means to eradicate the cancer that grows within their body.

The only time I hear representatives of Muslim communities get up and denounce terrorism is right after an attack. It only lasts for a few days, and then soon theyre back to blaming the West for it all, as Westerners nod their heads in agreement.