Islam and Europe

[IglooDame]

Ban faith schools. No religious funding whatsoever. Religion is what causes these divides, belief in god(s) that do not exist. We must show our children that we can live for each other, rather than some false god, that we are all one race, that these religious preachers are false prophets and that the only true faith is belief in humanity.

We must end both Islamic and Christian fundamentalism.

Excellent, we'll adjust the war so that it is both ends against the middle.

I'm not sure you understand, Islamic fundamentalism already sees the West as having implemented your "solution". All you'd be doing is #1 energizing the Timothy McVeighs, and #2 making the islamofascists' perception into reality.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Excellent, we'll adjust the war so that it is both ends against the middle.

I'm not sure you understand, Islamic fundamentalism already sees the West as having implemented your "solution". All you'd be doing is #1 energizing the Timothy McVeighs, and #2 making the islamofascists' perception into reality.

Igloo, exactly. The secularism of the West is the very thing that sets them off. Making the West even more secular wont solve anything.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

The recent suicide bombings in the heart of London are a sympthom of a bigger problem in Europe. The continued growt of islam in conjuction with the radicalisation of Muslims worldwide are a cause of tention in almost every Western (European) society with a large muslim population. Inspired by the Al Qaida terrorists and inflamed by the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan by EU and American troops parts of the muslim youth is turning itself against the society they were born and grew up in. Link

I see it around me were I live. The muslims guys I've grew up with and have gone to school with are also radicalising. The debate about Islam in our society seems to have a radicalising effect on them. Tonight i've talked with some guys I have known for almost all my life telling me they actually dispise our society and support the murderded of a Dutch filmmaker last year wholeheartely. I thought they were joking but found they were serious about this. I asked if they also supported Al Qaida, they didn't know but they did understand them they said.

...

...

The growt of muslim communities in Europe is fast. In 2020 half of Amsterdam will be muslim, same for other big cities in Europe. What does this mean for the future, how are we going to hold our society's togheter?

I see this problem as the result of liberal, tolerant attitudes of the West being exploited by Muslims. They like to have their cake and eat it too. They love the economic opportunities of the West, which they'd never get if they were in their ancestral lands, but they are so proud of their culture they take violent action at even the slightest hint of slight to it. What it will finally take to bring this to an end is some terrorist action that is so abominable that the response will be even worse. When 9/11 happened, the US responded by invading a whole country, Afghanistan, which was harboring Al Qaeda. If at some point, a nuclear attack happens, the response will be even more devastating for Muslims.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

I listened to an interseting discussion this morning about the spread of islamofascism in the world. There is beginning to be a growing feeling among the moslem population themselves that their religion has been hijacked, that hideous acts are being done in their name, that they have to fight and reclaim their own religion from the fascists. Time will tell whether the moslem population has the will and the means to eradicate the cancer that grows within their body.

Yes, I hear that a lot. Ever heard the term "all talk and no action"? I hear this about as often as I hear words like... "We condemn this terrorist action, but you have to understand where these people are coming from," from Muslims. Since when does double-talk qualify as serious discussion?

 

[Gothmog]

Shevek has a good point, I just think he needs to take it one step further. I don't think he is trying to blame his own society but humanity in general.

It is wise to point out that there are radicals of all color.

I don't agree with his characterization of western culture as any more shallow as other historical cultures though that's another topic. Grand vision has been a great unifier, but also a source of much victimization of outliers.

Look to history, brief periods of relative social stability, socially accepted marginalization of vast groups, political prosecution, etc. This is human history, not just Western.

I don't think we are seeing anything really new here, just human nature expressing its self as always. Understanding why humans behave in this way is key to creating political and social structures that can minimize their economic and behavioral influence.

It seems that the fear is that a Muslim majority would respond to the Muslim radicals in the same way that the Europian majority has often been seen to respond to Europian radicals. Is then the problem really the Muslims?

btw, I really hate the term politically correct. Kierador made a very nice post, but felt he had to color it with this meaningless term. AFAICT there was nothing politically incorrect about your post Kierador. You make roughly the same point as Shevek, the problem lies in the radical groups and their ability to affect the actions of the larger more moderate ones. How can we minimize their influence.

If by politically correct people mean that we no longer consider it correct to condemn people based solely on their race or religion, that we no longer want to accept lynching as justice, that we accept the rule of law and due process, I agree. But I don't think that's what most people mean, it seems it's a meaningless derogatory term.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

If by politically correct people mean that we no longer consider it correct to condemn people based solely on their race or religion, that we no longer want to accept lynching as justice, that we accept the rule of law and due process, I agree. But I don't think that's what most people mean, it seems it's a meaningless derogatory term.

For the politically correct, every discussion begins with an acknowledgement that the West is evil, and is always ultimately at fault. The only responsible party in the world is the West. So if a group of Muslims slaughter 3000 people in NYC or in Madrid, or the UK, we've got to understand them, and apologize to them for our sins. That may or may not be politically correct, but its definitely stupid.

 

[Gothmog]

You start with 'for the politically correct', and you use it as a meaningless derogatory term. To you it seems to mean people who think the west is evil and always ultimately at fault.

Thanks for confirming that for me.

I'm saying this is human, and we have to understand humanity. That includes the west, the east, and everything in between. Who wants to be the first to appologize for being human?

It seems that the fear is that a Muslim majority would respond to the Muslim radicals in the same way that the Europian majority has often been seen to respond to Europian radicals. Is then the problem really the Muslims?

 

[ComradeDavo]

Excellent, we'll adjust the war so that it is both ends against the middle.

I'm not sure you understand, Islamic fundamentalism already sees the West as having implemented your "solution". All you'd be doing is #1 energizing the Timothy McVeighs, and #2 making the islamofascists' perception into reality.

At current kids are taught in schools that Islam is life and that they are basically brought up to be fundamentalist - fanatics have easy acess to kids though Islamic schools and can fill them with hatred for the west.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I don't see what's surprising about the failure of integration. What could be more natural than immigrants bunching up in ghettos, finding among one another a measure of familiarity and comfort in a strange new land? The pattern is certainly not unknown in that old example of successful integration, the US. But whereas in the US emigrants has been needed to settle new lands and man new industry, and eventually pulled out of their ghettos, there's little need of this kind in Europe - we've got more than enough unemployed natives, and few people perceive any need for more people. To repeat the cliché, immigrants are seen as a problem, not a resource.

Additionally, the cultural gulf 'tween Europe and the ME is rather larger than that 'tween the US and the places most immigrants traditionally came from.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

You start with 'for the politically correct', and you use it as a meaningless derogatory term.

It may be derogatory, but not meaningless. By now I think everybody has a pretty clear idea of what falls under 'PC' thought. Is there another term for this movement besides PC? What do they call themselves? Take me to your leader

I'm saying this is human, and we have to understand humanity. That includes the west, the east, and everything in between. Who wants to be the first to appologize for being human?

It seems that the fear is that a Muslim majority would respond to the Muslim radicals in the same way that the Europian majority has often been seen to respond to Europian radicals. Is then the problem really the Muslims?

Absolutely I have no argument with what youre saying. Certainly Hitler was the greatest terrorist mastermind that ever lived (either him or Stalin, but he's definitely in the top two), compared to him, OBL is an embarrassment. This sort of behavior isnt unique to Muslims, I agree, its a human problem thats been going on forever. All of that can be true, but its doesnt change the fact that we're at war right now, even though alot of people seem to be in denial about it for some reason. What Im trying to say is that while completely accurate, calling it a human rather than a Muslim propblem isnt going to stop these people (who happen to be Muslim) from planting new bombs today, or next week or next year.

 

[luiz]

I don't see what's surprising about the failure of integration. What could be more natural than immigrants bunching up in ghettos, finding among one another a measure of familiarity and comfort in a strange new land? The pattern is certainly not unknown in that old example of successful integration, the US. But whereas in the US emigrants has been needed to settle new lands and man new industry, and eventually pulled out of their ghettos, there's little need of this kind in Europe - we've got more than enough unemployed natives, and few people perceive any need for more people. To repeat the cliché, immigrants are seen as a problem, not a resource.

Additionally, the cultural gulf 'tween Europe and the ME is rather larger than that 'tween the US and the places most immigrants traditionally came from.

Well if there is one thing in my country that worked was integration. We have 20-30 million arabs, millions of japanese, chinese, descendents of europeans and africans and their respective mixtures. And there is no single racial ghetto in this entire country. If we could do it, why can't others?

(there are some very small villages in the south where the whole population is of german origin, but that doesn't qualify as a ghetto IMO).

 

[Rambuchan]

If it were just integration that's failing how come that there are non muslim radicals around? Leftwing radicals, rightwing radicals, you name it. OK they don't do suicide bombings, but for instance in Berlin there is a lot of rioting going on ( like 1. May).

Maybe the underlying problem lies more in our society than in the islamic faith?
Most people in my experience crave some spirituality, some sense, some purpose in their life.
Western society seems to give them shallow TV, no jobs, porn and a lot of other unsavoury things instead. There is certainly nowhere a grand vision that I can see. Nothing for people to lash onto.
Which might also explain the rise in Christian fundalism in the US.

Anyway, this is just a feeling of mine.

That is an excellent point and a large part of the dynamic which gets overlooked.

I believe the responsibility of better addressing these radical individuals is upon the communities they come from. They need to ostracise those individuals themselves. And they need to be reporting suspicious activity to the police. It is the Muslim community which can help the most and the large majority don't share these radical views. As Col has pointed out, many Muslim in Europe feel the banner "NOT IN MY NAME" is now relevant again. They should continue and the government needs to help them do this.

We've seen both the rise of radical Islamic thinking and hate attacks from far-right groups in recent week(s). Whilst 'the authorities' speak out against radical Islam in Europe and good people like us continue to engage in debates like this - we don't seem to realise that it is quite inflammatory. The extremism on both sides is 'stoked by the attention' so to speak.

We need to focus on the moderate elements of communities. Concentrate and strengthen the devices by which communities integrate and harmonise. A focus on this will remove the spotlight from radicalism and thereby place it on moderate behaviour, compliant with a multi-ethnic, multi-faith society. A celebration of these aspects, the roots of more peaceful living, will surely assist with Europe's general cultural integration.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Ram, youve got a very positive attitude and its great, but what do you do if the terrorists, or bombers, whatever you want to call them, wont listen to you? What if you cant reach them with your message of tolerance and mutual respect? Whats your Plan B?

 

[The Last Conformist]

Well if there is one thing in my country that worked was integration. We have 20-30 million arabs, millions of japanese, chinese, descendents of europeans and africans and their respective mixtures. And there is no single racial ghetto in this entire country. If we could do it, why can't others?

It's not necessarily a question of inability, per se. A very considerable number of Europeans don't want to integrate a dozen million or so foreign-looking Muslims.

Another point is that to a segment of the political élite, "assimilation" is a dirty word. Immigrants have been actively encouraged to stick to their own traditions, pursuant of a "multicultural" society. At points, allegiance to Sweden as a nation has been described as something actively bad. I think it would be odd if this didn't to some extent deter immigrants that may want to integrate.

 

[Gothmog]

Bozo wrote:

By now I think everybody has a pretty clear idea of what falls under 'PC' thought.

Well, I don't. It seems to range from this

an acknowledgement that the West is evil, and is always ultimately at fault. The only responsible party in the world is the West.

to this

we no longer consider it correct to condemn people based solely on their race or religion, that we no longer want to accept lynching as justice, that we accept the rule of law and due process

It's a catch all that people often use to avoid talking about the real issues. The need to marginalize the radicals, whatever their ethnic or religious origins.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Incidentally, last I heard the Maghrib's birthrate was in decline. Unceasing immigration certainly is not a given.

 

[luiz]

It's not necessarily a question of inability, per se. A very considerable number of Europeans don't want to integrate a dozen million or so foreign-looking Muslims.

Another point is that to a segment of the political élite, "assimilation" is a dirty word. Immigrants have been actively encouraged to stick to their own traditions, pursuant of a "multicultural" society. At points, allegiance to Sweden as a nation has been described as something actively bad. I think it would be odd if this didn't to some extent deter immigrants that may want to integrate.

That's very interesting.
Hopefully the european political elites will wake up to the fact that assimilation is a necessity.

 

[King Alexander]

First and foremost, you should be stopping any further immigration from Muslim countries. Thats clearly not going to happen for politically correct reasons.That being the case, the outcome isnt hard to figure out. Explosive birthrates among the Muslim immigrant community, and ever declining birthrates in the native population? Couple that with unceasing immigration from the Muslim world? Just do the math.

No more immigration wouldn't stop the society's change, as it doesn't matter anymore(the current immigrants are already many): if the entire Holland won't be half Muslim by 2030, it'll certainly be by 2050, and by 2100 we'll be clearly talking about a Muslim country.
So, there isn't anything to do about it or to make proposals. Better to do ourselves a favor and accept Turkey asap: why should we wait?

btw: I think, you Americans are going to miss (hot)debating with Europeans, and vice versa

As Drunk said, the Muslims he refers to were born and raised in Holland, he grew up with them. Dialogue? What is there left to say, that hasnt been said already during their lifetimes in Holland?

Why? I dont understand this instinctive reaction people in the West have. Somebody attacks you, and you apologize. They blow up your civilians and you believe your society is at fault, not thiers If I live 1000 years I'll never understand it.

I don't know what could happen to prevent the terrorist-bombings.

It may sound irrelevant(not regarding religion), but I'll just say something:
As you know, the Greek Junta of 1967-1974 was promoted by the U.S. I didn't saw any Greek wanting to bomb the U.S: sure, they hated it for doing so(many people were killed/tortured), and still today, many are suspicious of (almost all of)the intentions of the U.S, but as I said, nobody suggested/tried to bomb/hurt the U.S, one way or another. Even some of our current EU allies were not nice at Greece during this century.
Greeks actually get well along with U.S./EU tourists, have fun together. So, did the culture played any role on this outcome?

 

[Rambuchan]

Ram, youve got a very positive attitude and its great, but what do you do if the terrorists, or bombers, whatever you want to call them, wont listen to you? What if you cant reach them with your message of tolerance and mutual respect? Whats your Plan B?

Duh! You lock them up and put them on trial. Idea is that the community polices itself. Then the real boys step in with the law and order.

 

[amadeus]

Western society seems to give them shallow TV, no jobs, porn and a lot of other unsavoury things instead.

The answer then is rather obvious: don't move to Europe/the U.S.