Islam and fascism (split from IS thread)

:lol:No, I wonder why the other outlets are ignoring it.;)

I like the full spectrum of news, have the impression that isn't true of liberals.
Have you ever heard of journalistic integrity?

WND isn't a "news outlet". It is a propaganda mill. It has no journalistic integrity.

This is why critical thinking is so important.

In sum: "A persistent effort to examine any belief or supposed form of knowledge in the light of the evidence that supports or refutes it and the further conclusions to which it tends."[14]
If you can't tell the difference between reputable journalism and propaganda, you will continue to be the potential victim of the latter.
 
Recently saw these two opinion pieces on youtube (from back in March):

The origins of ISIS:


Link to video.

What needs to be done:


Link to video.

What a mess. :( :blush:
Those are excellent videos. Even RT seems to now be showing up American mainstream media.

It also reinforces a point I made in the Syria thread about how a major al-Qaida leader came to be in charge of the Libyan military due to the meddling there. And now he may actually be in charge of ISIS...

The US should just get out of warmongering business altogether. The Middle East might actually have a chance to finally have a semblance of peace again in another decade or two after the massive damage we have directly caused has had a chance to subside. Not to mention no more American servicemen would have to needlessly die.
 
It also reinforces a point I made in the Syria thread about how a major al-Qaida leader came to be in charge of the Libyan military due to the meddling there. And now he may actually be in charge of ISIS...

Actually, feelers between IS and al Qaeda have come to naught so far. Let's not confuse the two now, shall we.
 
I you are comparing a light "enlightened" Christian with a fundamuntalist "bacward" Muslim, than indeed very often one is going to be more strict than the other. I think you are overexagerating the place of Mohammad within muslims and underestimating that of JC within Christians. You are also forgetting about the influence of culture and societal environment on people behaviour towards their religion. Christians living in less open and backward societies are much less tolerant about "missing" with JC than Christians in Europe where people are used to free speach. I don't think it would be wise for you to go and shout "JC is a f**head" in front of a Church in say Manilla or Kigali.

Well, you are proving my point. It is due to secularism and values based on the enlightenment that most Christians are not fundamentalists and hence have a level of worship of their prophets which rarely escapes from the private to the public sphere. Of course you can find the occasional country where religiosity among Christians is still rather high. But even in these countries it will hardly match the degree of religiosity found throughout the Muslim world.

That is not true, but a fantasy unless you show us a hard evidence.
Just check the polls. You usually get majorities who want to implement sharia, which includes blasphemy laws and the death penalty for insulting the prophet.

And Mary is the most common female name in many Christian countries, so what?
Mohammed is the most common name in the world, not just in Muslim countries. It is usually the oldest son who is named after him. This is an indication, albeit an admittedly small one in comparison to others, as to how highly he is regarded.

And I don't know if you realise how wrong your last sentence is: Muslims do not worship Mohummad, he is just a man for them, maybe the best human ever, but a human nevertheless. Christians do however worship JC.
Erm, maybe this is a language barrier. But of course Muslims worship Mohammed. They include him in most prayers. He is seen as the best human who ever lived. He is the perfect example they strive to achieve. This is the definition of worship.


that is your own interpretation of both M and JC. Millions of other people had a different one and countless Christians killed raped and enslaved thinking that they were acting as JC would have wanted them to do and many millions of Muslims spent their life praying and doing good deeds and lived peaceful lives hearding goats like hippies thinking that they were acting as M would have wanted them to do. What makes you think you know better about M and JC true life style?
Not every Christian or Muslim behaviour can be tracked to their prophet. I was refering to a hypothetical example. But I am sure that I don't have to point out to you that Mohammed and Jesus are vastly different characters.



First of all, it is not debatable at all whether Mohammed existed! at least it is much less debatable than my own as there is more historical evidence about him than about me. You are a history professor, I am surprised you state such thing
I work as a teacher at a high school, so I'm not a professor! Though I think "professeur" is French for teacher, so that is maybe what you meant. Personally I am pretty much convinced that Mohammed existed after having read various accounts. But his existence has been challenged academically, most notably by Robert Spencer. I have read parts of his book, and while I don't agree with his conclusion he does raise some valid points. That is what I meant when I said his existence can be debated.

What is debatable however is your description of him being a rapist having sex slaves etc. I 'd like to see the "Islamic sources" your claiming to take your description from.
With "Islamic sources" I mainly mean the koran and the hadith, and to a lesser extent the foundational texts of the Islamic schools of law (sharia) as well as current interpretations by Islamic scholars. I'm at work at the moment so I don't have my sources here, but just look it up. It is well established that Mohammed kept sex slaves and it is clearly justified by Islamic scripture.

I notice that you label "speculation" things that do not fit your opinion on the matter, and facts taken from "Islamic sources" thigs that do. That is very often a bad way of seeking the truth about a matter.
Show me a reliable pre-Islamic source then from the Arab world which talks about women's rights. They seem to be rather scarce. Whereas everything I am stating about Islam is indeed found in the Islamic sources. I believe you said you read the koran, surely its content is not new to you.

Slavery however was indeed not outlawed by Islam, well at least not clearly which is indeed shameful but not that surprising in the 6th century.
"Slavery was not outlawed by Islam"... now that is a way to put it. The practise is described in great detail in the sharia. Muslims imported and kept tens of millions of slaves over the centuries, mainly from Africa but also from Europe and India. Read "Race and Culture" by Thomas Sowell.
 
Well, you are proving my point. It is due to secularism and values based on the enlightenment that most Christians are not fundamentalists and hence have a level of worship of their prophets which rarely escapes from the private to the public sphere. Of course you can find the occasional country where religiosity among Christians is still rather high. But even in these countries it will hardly match the degree of religiosity found throughout the Muslim world.

A rather bold generalization.

You usually get majorities who want to implement sharia, which includes blasphemy laws and the death penalty for insulting the prophet.

The overwhelming majority of Muslim countries do not have sharia laws. They are, in fact, secular countries.

But of course Muslims worship Mohammed. They include him in most prayers. He is seen as the best human who ever lived. He is the perfect example they strive to achieve. This is the definition of worship.

Muslims no more worship Muhammad than Christians worship Moses. But Islam considers there to be only one God to worship, whereas Christianity has at least three.

Not every Christian or Muslim behaviour can be tracked to their prophet. I was refering to a hypothetical example. But I am sure that I don't have to point out to you that Mohammed and Jesus are vastly different characters.

Not to Muslims. Jesus is counted as one of the prophets.

Personally I am pretty much convinced that Mohammed existed after having read various accounts. But his existence has been challenged academically, most notably by Robert Spencer. I have read parts of his book, and while I don't agree with his conclusion he does raise some valid points. That is what I meant when I said his existence can be debated.

Not convincingly, as you just pointed out. Basically anything can be debated, so that's neither here nor there.

Show me a reliable pre-Islamic source then from the Arab world which talks about women's rights.

Women's rights basically was not an issue anywhere before the 18th century.

"Slavery was not outlawed by Islam"... now that is a way to put it. The practise is described in great detail in the sharia. Muslims imported and kept tens of millions of slaves over the centuries, mainly from Africa but also from Europe and India. Read "Race and Culture" by Thomas Sowell.

I don't think we need to read a book to know that slavery today is illegal everywhere. Which kind of defeats your earlier point on how Muslims in general are so backward as compared to, say, Christians.

As your argument in general also doesn't seem to hold up well. Which isn't surprising when generalizing.
 
Well, you are proving my point. It is due to secularism and values based on the enlightenment that most Christians are not fundamentalists and hence have a level of worship of their prophets which rarely escapes from the private to the public sphere. Of course you can find the occasional country where religiosity among Christians is still rather high. But even in these countries it will hardly match the degree of religiosity found throughout the Muslim world.

No I am not proving your point as my point coincide with just your first sentence here not the second. I don’t think the degree of religiosity found among Rwandan, Kenyan and even New born Bible Belt Christians is pale compared to that of many muslim countries.

Just check the polls. You usually get majorities who want to implement sharia, which includes blasphemy laws and the death penalty for insulting the prophet.

I don’t give any value to things in thereligionofpeace.com as I said earlier.

Mohammed is the most common name in the world, not just in Muslim countries. It is usually the oldest son who is named after him. This is an indication, albeit an admittedly small one in comparison to others, as to how highly he is regarded.

I know that, I am just saying “So what”?

Erm, maybe this is a language barrier. But of course Muslims worship Mohammed. They include him in most prayers. He is seen as the best human who ever lived. He is the perfect example they strive to achieve. This is the definition of worship.

It is indeed a language barrier as you seem not to understand the meaning of worship “the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.” Muslims do not consider M a God when Christians consider JC as one.

Not every Christian or Muslim behaviour can be tracked to their prophet. I was refering to a hypothetical example. But I am sure that I don't have to point out to you that Mohammed and Jesus are vastly different characters. .

That’s because you depicted JC as a pacifist-hippi and M as a warlord and I told you that this is just your interpretation. Many Christians think they ‘d be following JC to the letter while warring for him.

I work as a teacher at a high school, so I'm not a professor! Though I think "professeur" is French for teacher, so that is maybe what you meant. Personally I am pretty much convinced that Mohammed existed after having read various accounts. But his existence has been challenged academically, most notably by Robert Spencer. I have read parts of his book, and while I don't agree with his conclusion he does raise some valid points. That is what I meant when I said his existence can be debated.

Robert Spencer !!! Let me guess, is your main source of knowledge about the Holocaust Robert Faurisson?

With "Islamic sources" I mainly mean the koran and the hadith, and to a lesser extent the foundational texts of the Islamic schools of law (sharia) as well as current interpretations by Islamic scholars. I'm at work at the moment so I don't have my sources here, but just look it up. It is well established that Mohammed kept sex slaves and it is clearly justified by Islamic scripture. .

No problem, I am waiting

Show me a reliable pre-Islamic source then from the Arab world which talks about women's rights. They seem to be rather scarce. Whereas everything I am stating about Islam is indeed found in the Islamic sources. I believe you said you read the koran, surely its content is not new to you.

Well one of the most now verses in the Koran is indeed about outlawing female infanticide. It goes some thin like this “And when the female buried alive shall be questioned: for what sin was she killed?”. There is also “And kill not your children for fear of poverty. We provide for them and you. Surely, the killing of them is a great sin.”
But to be honest, Islam brought with him rigid sexual barriers though as pre Islamic Arabia was much more open to “sex” than post Islamic one.

"Slavery was not outlawed by Islam"... now that is a way to put it. The practise is described in great detail in the sharia. Muslims imported and kept tens of millions of slaves over the centuries, mainly from Africa but also from Europe and India. Read "Race and Culture" by Thomas Sowell.

Yet there are many verses in the Koran questioning slavery and the first Muezzin in Islam, Bilal, was a slave bought from a Meccan merchant who was torturing him because he converted to Mohammad’s faith. He was bought than freed by Abu Bakr, Muhammad’s closest friend on his command. Now there is no doubt, Islam did not outlaw slavery and it was therefore practiced by Muslims for centuries until emancipation was imposed or copied from the West
 
It is indeed a language barrier as you seem not to understand the meaning of worship “the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.”

I thought "worship" literally meant "to give worth to something". Have I been mistaken then?

The word is derived from the Old English weorþscipe, meaning worship, honour shown to an object,[1] which has been etymologised as "worthiness or worth-ship"—to give, at its simplest, worth to something.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worship

A person can, I have been told, worship football. I should point out, though, that I've been misled before now. So this may mean nothing.
 
I don’t think the degree of religiosity found among Rwandan, Kenyan and even New born Bible Belt Christians is pale compared to that of many muslim countries.
Yes, if you go to the extremes of Christianity and compare them with averagely religious Muslim countries, you may be right. But you don't want to seriously disagree that by and large the degree of religiosity among Christians is vastly smaller than that of Muslims. Besides, the content of the religion and its current interpretation matter. There is a reason why we see such different behaviour of Christians and Muslims today.

I don’t give any value to things in thereligionofpeace.com as I said earlier.
Slur. Rejecting a site without having looked at what it says it bigotry.

It is indeed a language barrier as you seem not to understand the meaning of worship “the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.”
Worshipping a deity is not the only definition of the word.

That’s because you depicted JC as a pacifist-hippi and M as a warlord and I told you that this is just your interpretation. Many Christians think they ‘d be following JC to the letter while warring for him.
Again, you really don't want to disagree that the character of Mohammed is much more violent than the character of Jesus.

Robert Spencer !!! Let me guess, is your main source of knowledge about the Holocaust Robert Faurisson?
Slur. Have you read his books or heard any of his talks? If yes, which of his points do you disagree with and why?

No problem, I am waiting

Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty (koran 33:50)

And all married women are forbidden unto you save those captives whom your right hand possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. (koran 4:24)

Not so the worshippers, (...) who restrain their carnal desire (save with their wives and their slave girls, for these are lawful to them: he that lusts after other than these is a transgressor... (koran 70:22-30)

...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave girls, for these are lawful to them... (koran 23:5-6)

Well one of the most now verses in the Koran is indeed about outlawing female infanticide. It goes some thin like this “And when the female buried alive shall be questioned: for what sin was she killed?”. There is also “And kill not your children for fear of poverty. We provide for them and you. Surely, the killing of them is a great sin.”
So questioning the indiscriminate killing of women makes you a champion of women's rights. You set the bar rather low. You know full well that there are dozens of verses in the koran and the hadith which place women far below men in every relevant aspect of life. You might say that was just how the times were. But that is my point, Mohammed was not far beyond his time when it comes to women.

Yet there are many verses in the Koran questioning slavery and the first Muezzin in Islam, Bilal, was a slave bought from a Meccan merchant who was torturing him because he converted to Mohammad’s faith. He was bought than freed by Abu Bakr, Muhammad’s closest friend on his command. Now there is no doubt, Islam did not outlaw slavery and it was therefore practiced by Muslims for centuries until emancipation was imposed or copied from the West
Now the onus is on you to show me the verses in the koran which condemn slavery. The rest is a nice story, but not representative of what the scripture says.
 
Actually, feelers between IS and al Qaeda have come to naught so far. Let's not confuse the two now, shall we.
So you claim there can't possibly be any validity whatsoever to this latest rumor? Because "feelers between ISIL and al Qaeda have come to naught so far"? Because doing so would somehow be "confusing the two"?

What would you say to all those who claim that ISIL is even worse than the al-Qaida? That they also "confuse the two"?

Did you even watch the RT video above before deciding to make these allegations?
 
How does that even follow? I imagine as little as mentioning an al Qaeda being in charge of IS. Once again, let's not confuse matters now, shall we.
 
Now the onus is on you to show me the verses in the koran which condemn slavery. The rest is a nice story, but not representative of what the scripture says.

An even more relevant burden is to try to get an idea of how many (self-identifying) Muslims believe that the Koran condones slavery. What the text actually says is important, but it's even more important if we're trying to change what people thinks it says.

I'm not trying to create a Red Herring, but I think the Bible very clearly condones the execution of homosexuals. Now, my impression of my local culture is that the average Christian does not believe this. And so, I have no intention on carefully examining the text in order to change their minds.

However, the Bible also very clearly encourages caring for the poor, even to the point where you give up material comforts in order to do so. But the average Christian seems to believe that it's perfectly acceptable to live in material comfort while the poor suffer. Because of this, I'm quite okay with carefully examining the text and building a case in order to change their minds.

The Koran seems to condone (encourage?) the murder of apostates. But many Muslims don't seem to pull this from the text. I'm not going to argue with them.
 
An even more relevant burden is to try to get an idea of how many (self-identifying) Muslims believe that the Koran condones slavery. What the text actually says is important, but it's even more important if we're trying to change what people thinks it says.
Absolutely. Fortunately, most Muslim majority countries no longer adhere to the practise of slavery (which is to some extent due to the influence of their Western colonial overlords in the 19th and early 20th century). It is still practised in parts of Afghanistan, Sudan, Somalia, Mali, Mauretania, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, despite being illegal in some of these places. And of course by ISIS, who follow the passages in the koran on slavery and have built an economy of sex slaves. But the practise of slavery does not belong to the mainstream orthodox interpretation of Islam.

The Koran seems to condone (encourage?) the murder of apostates. But many Muslims don't seem to pull this from the text. I'm not going to argue with them.
That apostacy is to be punished by death is an integral part of current orthodox Islam. Of course we can find many Muslims who no longer give too much credence to the verses found in the koran and the hadith which command the killing of apostates. But that is not all too satisfactory, as long as Muslims throughout the Islamic world have to fear for their lives for even openly questioning their belief.
 
How does that even follow? I imagine as little as mentioning an al Qaeda being in charge of IS. Once again, let's not confuse matters now, shall we.
You mean this obvious strawman of what I actually stated?

Once again, watch the video before peremptorily dismissing the latest possibility presented by RT above!
 
First, I didn't make allegations. Second, if RT is the only one publishing this 'news', I'm sorry to say they're not very well informed - to put it mildly.

But let's take this suggestion seriously. What sources told RT that an al Qaeda member 'may be' in charge of IS? Where did this al Qaeda member even come from? And lastly, why would al Qaeda put out feelers to IS, if they already have a member 'leading' IS?

(Oh, and I don't watch vids to learn about news. I read media for that. Preferably well-informed media.)

Fortunately, most Muslim majority countries no longer adhere to the practise of slavery

Nice to know 'most Muslim majority countries no longer adhere to the practice of slavery'. Seems like a bit of old news though, seeing as no country adheres to slavery. That's probably because it happens to have been illegal for quite some time now.
 
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