Israel bombed Sudan?

[Formaldehyde]

Correlation does not imply causation, you're jumping to conclusions due to well, your bias. Just because Israel says that Sudan provides arms to Hamas and therefore has it out for them, does not mean every single explosion or death in Sudan involves them. I'd like proof before walking down the blame Israel for everything route.

I am merely stating the obvious. That it is quite likely Israel who committed the latest atrocities by killing and injuring civilians, as well as committing the clear violations of sovereignty by even flying drones and jets inside Sudan, which they even apparently admit have come under fire.

It is your "bias" which is quite clear in virtually any discussion of Israel. Unlike you, I blame both sides for continually fomenting terrorism in the region which continues to injure and kill innocent people.

 

[Farm Boy]

If Farmboy took the time to retrain his two space after period habit, it seems wasted in this forum at least. Unless one unchecks the default coding, it seems the software removes one space automatically. That has been a bugging concern in the back of my brain for quite some time now. There is no way to test this theory, since once you quote someone, it reverts back to their original typing format. It only appears after you submit your post back to the thread.

Just circling back around. I retrained before I opened my account here. I think many software programs probably take out double spaces automatically under default settings. Double spaces made a lot of sense when type fonts were set up so all letters take up the same amount of horizontal room(like on a typewriter or courier new font) but with most fonts these days having dynamic spacing for letters it has mostly died out. Probably mostly due to how the new spacing dynamic treats periods and it giving enough white space to separate sentences without the double tap on space.

 

[kochman]

I am merely stating the obvious. That it is quite likely Israel who committed the latest atrocities by killing and injuring civilians, as well as committing the clear violations of sovereignty by even flying drones and jets inside Sudan, which they even apparently admit have come under fire.

It is your "bias" which is quite clear in virtually any discussion of Israel. Unlike you, I blame both sides for continually fomenting terrorism in the region which continues to injure and kill innocent people.

Formy, you won't listen... that's the problem.
All people said is, hold on, before we blame Israel for everything, let's actually get some facts.
You jump to an anti-Israel conclusion every time. If a nuke went of in Israel, and Al Qaeda took the blame, you'd be saying, hold on, I bet it was the Israeli government trying to start a war blaming Al Qaeda.
When everyone posting is saying you have a bias, why can't you just admit it?

 

[Joecoolyo]

I am merely stating the obvious. That it is quite likely Israel who committed the latest atrocities by killing and injuring civilians, as well as committing the clear violations of sovereignty by even flying drones and jets inside Sudan, which they even apparently admit have come under fire.

Yes, and I assume it was quite obvious Saddam was developing WMD's.

It is your "bias" which is quite clear in virtually any discussion of Israel. Unlike you, I blame both sides for continually fomenting terrorism in the region which continues to injure and kill innocent people.

I wasn't aware demanding evidence before jumping to conclusions was bias.

But I guess if it fits the agenda you're going for, evidence isn't necessary.

 

[fromeast2west]

Even if it was Isreal, so what? Both countries are basically sworn enemies, however much we like to pretend that things should be all happy and peaceful in the world.

It just isn't uncommon for countries to take covert actions against one another and then simply refuse blame. Some nations do it by backing terrorist groups, others do it by employing advanced weapons. In this case neither nation is an innocent, so why the hand ringing and whinging?

 

[Virote_Considon]

Formy, I got a question for you. How much weed do you smoke?

See, me and a friend have been noticing that many Palephiles smoke a lot of weed, and I have this hypothesis that the more weed someone smokes the more of a Palephile (in other words: the more anti-Israel) they become. If you smoke a lot of weed, then my hypothesis would indeed run true.

Moderator Action: Violation of Tavern Rule # 1
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Farm Boy]

Formy, I got a question for you. How much weed do you smoke?

See, me and a friend have been noticing that many Palephiles smoke a lot of weed, and I have this hypothesis that the more weed someone smokes the more of a Palephile (in other words: the more anti-Israel) they become. If you smoke a lot of weed, then my hypothesis would indeed run true.

That is the silliest darn thing I have read all day.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Yes, and I assume it was quite obvious Saddam was developing WMD's.

Why are you "jumping to conclusions" about this, especially given what we now know?

I wasn't aware demanding evidence before jumping to conclusions was bias.

But I guess if it fits the agenda you're going for, evidence isn't necessary.

Again, like the "evidence" they obviously have nuclear weapons and have assassinated numerous civilian scientists?

It is my opinion that Israel likely committed these atrocities based on the facts I have presented.

I think it is quite revealing that you would characterize that as "jumping to conclusions". Your bias towards Israel is far more obvious, especially given that I continue to blame both sides for the injury and death of civilians while you apparently do not.

 

[kochman]

Seriously, the "quotation marks" need to stop.

 

[del62]

Suprised Sudan has not blamed South Sudan, they are itching to start a fight with them,

Anyway since they are blaming Israel (it is kindof normal in Arab countries to blame the Joos) do you thinl they will attempt to massacre Israelis like they did the ppl of Dafur, could you imagine the Janweed attacking Israel

 

[Formaldehyde]

I'm sure South Sudan has lots of highly sophisticated fighter bombers and drones.

The Guardian calls Sudanese allegations "highly plausible", and Israel has yet to deny it. Prominent Israelis are even claiming that Iran should take notice that they can indeed make such long distance air strikes. That it is "a piece of cake":

No one in Israel is admitting that its pilots carried out a long-range raid against a munitions factory in Sudan, said to be supplying weapons to the Palestinian movement Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

But no one is denying it either. Amos Gilad, a senior defence ministry official, ducked a direct question, praising the capabilities of Israel's air force and calling Sudan "a dangerous terrorist state".

This is one of those episodes where motive, capability and precedent all matter. Sudan's angry accusation that Israel bombed the Yarmouk factory in Khartoum is highly plausible. The attack appears to offer a rare glimpse of a secret war that has been going on for years.

Israel could mount a raid like this using F-16 fighters, flying south along the Red Sea coast, under Saudi and Egyptian radar and with aerial refuelling. It would take about two and a half hours each way. Experts say drones could also be used. The same long-range capability could allow it to strike nuclear facilities in Iran.

Another tantalising glimpse of this clandestine war came in January 2010, when suspected Mossad agents assassinated Mohammed Mabhouh in a Dubai hotel. Mabhouh was described as the link man between Hamas and Iran. The following year a mysterious missile strike on a car near Port Sudan airport killed his replacement. Hamas denied the story while Sudan called the attack a "desperate Israeli attempt" to smear the country's image and scupper its bid to be removed from the US list of state sponsors of terrorism. Sudan has denied allowing weapons-smuggling through its territory.

Detailed evidence of Israel's efforts to block arms shipments to Hamas (and to Hezbollah in Lebanon) surfaced in WikiLeaks documents published by the Guardian. They demonstrated that Sudan was warned by the US in January 2009 not to allow the delivery of unspecified Iranian arms that were expected to be passed to Hamas in Gaza around the time of Israel's Cast Lead offensive, in which 1,400 Palestinians were killed.

Israeli media has reported that the Israeli air force carried out at least two secret operations in Sudan in January and February 2009. The first involved the bombing of a convoy carrying arms through Sudan to Gaza, in which 119 people were killed. And a ship at a Sudanese port was bombed from the air. Sudan accused the US of carrying out these attacks. In June that year Binyamin Netanyahu, Israel's prime minister, told US officials there was "a steady flow of Iranian weapons to Gaza through Sudan or Syria and then by sea".

Only rarely did the US cables show evidence of direct Israeli requests to the US to block arms deliveries. But in one meeting in 2009 a senior US state department official noted: "Most requests to third countries to deny arms transfer overflights are based on Israeli intelligence. Additional information/intelligence from the government of Israel would ensure greater co-operation."

There was a strong sense that Israel was also sending a blunt message to Iran. Ron Ben-Yishai, a veteran military commentator, wrote in daily newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth: "There is no doubt that the explosion in Khartoum will be food for thought not only for the authorities in Sudan but also in Gaza – and especially in Tehran."

Ephraim Inbar, a strategic expert, said: "It is very plausible that Israel was behind the strike. We have operated in that region in response to a variety of intelligence reports in the past. We definitely have the capability [to launch such a strike]. It seems an easy operation, involving four jets. For us it would be a piece of cake."

The UN source said: "We know for sure that weapons are flowing from and through Sudan into the Egyptian Sinai, possibly to Gaza. The Egyptians have told us that the arms flowing into Sinai from Sudan are a big security problem. Northern Sinai is full of weapons.

"We have seen in the last few days intense clashes along this northern border, between Israel and Egypt, with armed, radicalised Bedouin groups with a vision of political Islam. There seem to be clear links between this and the strike in Khartoum. In the same days we've seen a dramatic increase in rockets fired into Israel from Gaza. The convergence of these elements points to Israel as the perpetrator."

In past there have been allegations that Sudan stored chemical weapons for Iraq at the Yarmouk facility. Government officials denied the charge. The attack destroyed part of the compound infrastructure, killed two people and injured another.

In April last year, Sudan said it had irrefutable evidence that Israeli attack helicopters had carried out a missile and machine-gun strike on a car south of Port Sudan. That attack mirrored a similar strike by foreign aircraft on a truck convoy reportedly laden with weapons in eastern Sudan in January 2009. That too is widely believed to have been carried out Israel.

 

[kochman]

As time passes, your lack of evidence accusations are mitigated with more information.

The point is, you jump to the conclusion that Israel is to blame at the drop of a hat.

 

[Flying Pig]

All seems a bit Poirotesque - yes, they had means and motive, but without a confession the case is a bit thin. You could use much the same logic to argue that the Americans, or even the RAF, did it.

On the subject that 'they didn't deny it' - Israel's entire foreign policy is built around bluffing that they are stronger than they are. It would not be out of character for them to want outsiders to suspect that they are willing and able to do such a thing, particularly if they are not.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The "same logic" that they have been claiming for years that Sudan has been supplying Hamas with arms?

The "same logic" that they readily admit their drones and jets have come under fire in Sudanese airspace?

The "same logic" that they have never admitted to having nuclear weapons or assassinating civilian scientists?

Did the US or the UK also possibly commit other quite similar Israeli atrocities which they have never claimed responsibility?

Would you argue that the al-Qaida possibly wasn't responsible for 9/11 if they hadn't eventually admitted it? That it may have been the US or the UK instead?

Israel is by far the most likely country to have committed these acts against the Sudanese. If it were Obama, he would be asking to be impeached and rightly so.

 

[Flying Pig]

Israel is by far the most likely country to have committed acts of war against the Sudanese.

Indeed. But that does not mean they did it! That's the point I'm trying to make. You can raise as much circumstantial evidence as you like, but without hard evidence or a confession - and even then, I'd be inclined to view a confession from Israel with a little bit of scepticism - it's neither here nor there.

In case the Poirot mysteries haven't crossed the Atlantic, he's a detective whose form of solving a case essentially consists of what you're doing - he works out who had the means, opportunity and above all the motive to have committed the murder, and then gets all of the suspects into a room and confronts his alleged murderer with the facts, after which he or she always confesses and is arrested. Without that confession, however, he could never go to court - circumstantial evidence is not good enough to establish guilt. Again, this is pretty standard in the legal system - if my mother was stabbed to death, the fact that I disliked her, stood to inherit a lot of money from her and had bought a knife a week before would not be sufficient to lock me up. The reasonable doubt exists that all of this is co-incidence, or that somebody else who dislikes me knows all of that and so stabbed my mother in the hope of framing me for the crime (actually, the latter is the resolution of at least one Poirot story)

As for the 9/11 question - in the absence of hard evidence, there would have been no justification for invading Afghanistan to get Bin Laden. That doesn't mean I wouldn't think that al-Quaeda likely did it, but it means that I would recognise that we didn't have enough evidence to 'prove' that they did.

 

[chad187]

Sudan that country has enough issues already...

 

[emzie]

What does it matter if Israel did it?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Indeed. But that does not mean they did it! That's the point I'm trying to make.

And I never claimed they did. Now have I?

Once again, it is my opinion they did so. And that opinion is shared by many reputable experts, including some who are Israelis. Obviously, YMMV.