Israel Navy Opens Fire on Gaza Aid Flotilla

[Rumilus]

Completely agree

My point was that those claiming it being legal as an established fact were overreaching. It's not an established fact, and those on the ships believed the other side. When people dont recognise that the people on the ships believed they had every right under the law to defend themselves they miss the whole bloody point.

So how does Israelis believing they have every right to board the ships factor into it?

 

[GinandTonic]

You make me want to facepalm myself

48 pages. I've had as much stupidity as I can take in one discussion.

What on earth is your problem that you will not debate but simply be insulting.

You accuse me of being stupid and a biggot, and though I have enough faults to make a angel weep, I suffer neither of those.

You marm, are a cheap hack.

 

[Zarn]

So how does Israelis believing they have every right to board the ships factor into it?

No, because the burden goes to them. They are the ones committing the act.

 

[MobBoss]

Completely agree

My point was that those claiming it being legal as an established fact were overreaching. It's not an established fact, and those on the ships believed the other side. When people dont recognise that the people on the ships believed they had every right under the law to defend themselves they miss the whole bloody point.

This entire line of reasoning is just wrong. The fact that rockets are still being fired at Israel and the IDF is attacking where those rockets are launched from is clear evidence that there is still a military conflict being waged between Hamas/Gaza and Israel/IDF.

Whether its a ship, or even an apartment building, civilians DO NOT have the right to attack soldiers without regard to being considered a combatant/belligerant and thus becoming a legitmate target. Once a civilian picks up a weapon and attacks a soldier, even in what is considered self-defence, they become a legitimate target and forfeit their protected status under the Law of War.

That is all to consider. No, 'invasion of privacy' excuse, no 'the blockade is illegal' (its not), nothing. Thats it. Those people on that boat are dead because they forfeited their protected status. End of story.

 

[Rumilus]

No, because the burden goes to them. They are the ones committing the act.

Nonsense. Burden goes to them based on what law or treaty?

 

[MobBoss]

No, because the burden goes to them. They are the ones committing the act.

The only burden the soldiers have is to not fire on civilians as they are protected under the law of war, unless the civilians forfeit that protection by taking up arms and attacking the soldiers.

From all accounts, the IDF soldiers met their part of the burden. The people on the ship? Not so much. And it cost them.

 

[Zarn]

Rum: They have the right to not be harassed by a foreign force. Israel boarding them is in violation of that. They were flying the Turkish flag, among others. In these type of waters, it is their territory. It is as if Israel landed in Turkey and shot people.

Mobby: The soldiers should not have been there in the first place.

 

[otago]

Too many of you are missing the point of the flotilla, it was to make Israel look like a country with politicians who are idiots and a military who go to deadly force as soon as one of them got injured, which they did.

Now it seems a fair chance there will be a ship a week to Gaza, for the activists are playing Israel, they know that the Israeli military are used to enjoying free fire rules with all their weapons and will always over react.

The chances of a couple of Harpoon Missiles into one of those ships killing a couple of hundred Europeans must be high. Israel will then whine, but it is our right.

 

[Rumilus]

Rum: They have the right to not be harassed by a foreign force. Israel boarding them is in violation of that. They were flying the Turkish flag, among others. In these type of waters, it is their territory. It is as if Israel landed in Turkey and shot people.

We are back at the situation where there has been no binding international legal decision whether Israeli blockade is legal or not. If the siege and blockade is legal, Israel has every right to board the ship. If the siege is illegal, then what you say might be true.

And as I said earlier, Italy regularly boards ships carrying illegal immigrants on international waters. USA has done that around Florida aswell I think last time around 1999. So I doubt it is that simple as you claim it to be.

 

[GinandTonic]

So how does Israelis believing they have every right to board the ships factor into it?

In the Israelis being misguided and going OTT and they should jolly well stop, rather than they should be subjected to the messy business at the Hague.

There is this awful self-fulfilling prophecy about the extreme right of Israel. It seems from the outside they are doing all they possibly can to turn every palistinian into a jehadist and every nation against them to fit what they already believe to be the case.

It really upsets the UK jewish community. Ive seen a girl cry over it - but that happens - and a Drill Sargent (admittedly with the territorials) go into a wird raging silence which I guess is about as close to tears as he goes.

My point is that the people of North London dont hate the jews. They are a bunch of Guardian readers who completely support the whole idea of a jewish state but are horrified that the good guys are building ghettos complete with half rations.

 

[cardgame]

I suppose America's blockade of Cuba was illegitimate as well.

I say but this: Too bad. Legitimacy is established by force of arms. Don't run blockades, mm'kay?

 

[Zarn]

So if Turkey destroys the blockade with it's superior navy, all is good?

 

[cardgame]

I suppose, but then they'd be at war.

 

[Zarn]

We are back at the situation where there has been no binding international legal decision whether Israeli blockade is legal or not. If the siege and blockade is legal, Israel has every right to board the ship. If the siege is illegal, then what you say might be true.

And as I said earlier, Italy regularly boards ships carrying illegal immigrants on international waters. USA has done that around Florida aswell I think last time around 1999. So I doubt it is that simple as you claim it to be.

Do you guys even read stuff before you respond? Is there some sort of order in which you respond?

Answer A, B, C, B, D, E, A, C, D, F, E, B, B, B

Is that the pattern?

Even if the blockade was legal, it did not happen at the scene of blockade. It's also funny that you are claiming that a country can blockade itself. Either Gaza is Israel and Israel is trying to hurt itself or Gaza is not Israel and so Israel has no right to intervene at any point.

Your big assumption was that this was in Israel's waters. It was not.

 

[warpus]

Blockades are only illegal when set up to prevent humanitarian goods from reaching occupied territories, which the US and UK (at least) consider Gaza to be.

That's under Geneva convention 4, article 33 or something.

The US would veto a UN resolution calling the blockade illegal, so it will never be deemed illegal in a resolution.

 

[cardgame]

Your big assumption is that Israel has no right to intervene when Gaza is firing rockets on them.

 

[Truronian]

That is all to consider. No, 'invasion of privacy' excuse, no 'the blockade is illegal' (its not), nothing. Thats it. Those people on that boat are dead because they forfeited their protected status. End of story.

Not so. If the blockade is illegal (it violates the one of the Laws of War, read into that what you will) as the flotilla-ers believed then there is no excuse for the Israeli boarding of a neutral ship in neutral territory. Such a boarding violates the Laws of War, specifically those that protect neutral nations and their territory.

It very much hinges on the blockade; the attention this incident has brought to said blockade is one good thing that has come out of this unhappy incident.

 

[GinandTonic]

This entire line of reasoning is just wrong. The fact that rockets are still being fired at Israel and the IDF is attacking where those rockets are launched from is clear evidence that there is still a military conflict being waged between Hamas/Gaza and Israel/IDF.

Whether its a ship, or even an apartment building, civilians DO NOT have the right to attack soldiers without regard to being considered a combatant/belligerant and thus becoming a legitmate target. Once a civilian picks up a weapon and attacks a soldier, even in what is considered self-defence, they become a legitimate target and forfeit their protected status under the Law of War.

That is all to consider. No, 'invasion of privacy' excuse, no 'the blockade is illegal' (its not), nothing. Thats it. Those people on that boat are dead because they forfeited their protected status. End of story.

Invasion of privacy? Seems rather beside the point old man. Moderator Action: He has a name, please use it.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

You miss the point. It does matter if it is a ship or a building. The ship is in international waters. It matters just as much as what country the building is in.

1) The Israelis only have a right to board the ship in international waters if the blockade is valid.

2) If the blockade is not valid an attempt to take a ship by force in international waters is illegal and everyone on the ship is entitled to resist.

3) Saying "that law has been broken by the Yanks and the Limeys" does not change the law.

4) The retention of civilian protected status would depend on specifically it being piracy rather than simply illegal, but you know that civilians are allowed to resist pirates and remain civilians.

 

[Rumilus]

In the Israelis being misguided and going OTT and they should jolly well stop, rather than they should be subjected to the messy business at the Hague.

They can hardly stop tho. Israelis are being regularly attacked and killed. Only the past 5-6 years have been better since the wall and the blockades seem work so well to prevent the violence towards them.

Before that it was regular bus bombings, suecide attacks outside discos, cafees, shopping malls and whatnot. When there was no blockade and borders were more open, israelis died a lot more. You cannot ask them to stop the attacks against their civilian population. And people who so eagerly criticise Israel have no answer how to work it out either or to stop the arms smuggling and terrorism.

Im also annoyed by the fact that Israelis dont seem to be judged by the same standards as their enemies. Why the group with terrorism links who attacked and tried to lynch commandos armed with paintguns isn't going over the top? All the rest of the people in other ships stood down, with the real peace activists, apart from the one with IHH people looking for martyrdom.

But that didn't really answer the question. How does the fact that Israelis thought they were doing perfectly legal action factor into your previous arguement?

Do you guys even read stuff before you respond? Is there some sort of order in which you respond?

Answer A, B, C, B, D, E, A, C, D, F, E, B, B, B

Is that the pattern?

Even if the blockade was legal, it did not happen at the scene of blockade. It's also funny that you are claiming that a country can blockade itself. Either Gaza is Israel and Israel is trying to hurt itself or Gaza is not Israel and so Israel has no right to intervene at any point.

Your big assumption was that this was in Israel's waters. It was not.

Blockades can be enforced in international waters during armed conflict between nations or participant groups.

 

[Zarn]

Your big assumption is that Israel has no right to intervene when Gaza is firing rockets on them.

I never said I was pro-Hamas.