Israel

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Sure. They usually fail to qualify for international championships though.

Zeitgeist sucks and is completely dubious.
Oh, if you like Zeitgeist, you will love Spirit Science. Search it on Youtube. It's the grand unified theory of new age woo.
 
Zeitgeist sucks and is completely dubious.

Oh, don't get me wrong.

There are some interesting facts within Zeitgeist,
but the presentation and the conclusions the film
comes to regarding certain facts are tailored for their worldview,
which is the source of the dubiousness.
 
Their "facts" when in comes to religion are largely false.
 
Their "facts" when in comes to religion are largely false.

If you mean in regards to Christianity, then I would have to partially agree.
The producers draw too many parallels between minor details and as I have said
before, are altered to fit their own worldview.

However, regarding pagan religions, which I personally count as such,
I would have to more strongly disagree.
Many ancient cultures did indeed place a high value on the solstices and the equinox
and these were mostly reflected in their respective mythologies.
Which is why many cultural pantheons feature a sun and a moon deity, with some relation to the concepts of day and night as well.
It's one of the few unifying aspects of most, if not all civilizations and cultures.
The film accurately gives this some emphasis as presented, albeit stumbling on the whole "born from a virgin, 12 followers, etc." details on a host of the mythological figures presented.

I'm being specific here, with regards to the religion segment of that film.
 
Not really enough space for Israel, they'd probably be a decent candidate otherwise, as an ancient but weak kingdom to add a bit more flavour early on, and as a modern small state to trigger regional and potentially global wars depending on alliances and how the world is setup. Also a UP could be related to getting gold for every city or the % of Judaism in foreign cities, if Judaism was re-added

Somewhat related to Israel, nukes should be made stronger, more devastating and a significant nuclear exchange between powers should lead to devastation for both sides and the rest of the world
 
Agreed and well stated, Bair.


Pavel,

1) If you are so knowledgeable about Judaism, then surely you must know that Judaism didn't look anything like how it is now before they were exposed to Zoroastrianism.
The concept of Heaven and Hell was "borrowed/ripped off/inspired by" the conflict
between Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu, as well as numerous other aspects such as Judaism.
As well, Zoroastrianism is associated with the world's first imperial power, Persia, and it had its influences on Western culture as well, via the cult of Mithra.
So if you are going to argue for the "origin of Abrahamic religion", you've already been cut to the chase. Zoroastrianism is it.

2) You are also full of hypocrisies, as Bair astutely pointed out.
Your original concept was for the modern state of Israel, and NOT for the Kingdom of Israel or Judah,
the latter grouping of which I would consider as a true civilization,
but still wouldn't want to include because of space issues. (The Phoenician capital is literally 2 tiles away)
That you try to tie the old states with the new to bolster your argument for their
world impact when they have absolutely no semblance of association just kills your argument.
On top of that, I recall you mentioning that you can't play past a certain point because DoC apparently requires "super-computers".
(Get with the times, the minimum standard RAM is now 2-4GB at the very least).
If Israel is going to be a modern addition spawning from the 1900s, then what does it matter to you?
You're not going to be able to play them, given your own description.
So it leads me to wonder why you want them in the game so badly.

3) Third, your attitude does not help with your point.
You seem almost incapable of trying to make a point without denigrating something else in the process.
I can't speak for other users, but from my perspective, you have shown time and time again that you are a consistent and unapologetic bigot.
Every other post you seem to make seems to include some kind of charged statement toward some group or category;
usually Islam, as myself and at least one other user have called you out on.
I'm no mind-reader, but that in particular definitely leads me to believe that you have an agenda
concerning the inclusion of Israel, which I can't say for any other users who have vouched for Israel.

And yeah, this hurts your position too.
I'm not trying to prevent you from expressing your bigotry by the way; I just think this (DoC) is not the proper forum for it.
I'm positive that you can fulfill your needs to spew anti-Islam + any country/peoples who you seem to think is/are "politically unliberal" elsewhere without disrupting game development here.

Might I suggest Off-Topic?

This post also serves as a second (third if you count Leoreth) no to the inclusion of this particular civilization.

Chill out, I'm not "denigrating" other peoples opinion, I think I am giving reasonable opinions to why I disagree, I am not just saying "your idea sucks".

I am not a bigot, I don't care what religion anybody is, I am only mentioning historical record. Perhaps if you actually (including an "actually" in a post make anyone look angry) had lived in a non-Democratic country, been to a Muslim country or any country under recent Turkish/Arab occupation or you would understand. I am not trying to get talk started on politics, why are my political views even relevant to a Mod board?

Bringing up the Israel suggestion (& I am probably not the first person to do so) does not make me some sort of neo-con Zionist racist. I am not Jewish, and both Caucasians and Slavs are often very antisemitic anyway.

Having strong opinions does not make me a "bigot", text is hard to convey subtleties of emotion, so perhaps you should think about giving someone the benifit of the doubt before going on to angry accusative rant calling people names. Thanks.
 
Chill out, I'm not "denigrating" other peoples opinion, I think I am giving reasonable opinions to why I disagree, I am not just saying "your idea sucks".

I am not a bigot, I don't care what religion anybody is, I am only mentioning historical record. Perhaps if you actually (including an "actually" in a post make anyone look angry) had lived in a non-Democratic country, been to a Muslim country or any country under recent Turkish/Arab occupation or you would understand. I am not trying to get talk started on politics, why are my political views even relevant to a Mod board?

I'm sorry, it merely appears that way. As a disclaimer, I visited Turkey, Malaysia, Tunisia, Indonesia, and Oman. I not going to say I lived there, but I stayed for a very short, and enjoyable spell in Oman.

Spoiler :
A small, politically impotent, technologically backward, perpetually impoverished, numerically small people with no contributions to world if you don't count Westerners adopting their idiosyncatic reading of Buddhism as the dominant fashionable coffee-house 'exotic' religion?

Thanks. I'm sure all Tibetans, or Chinese can agree with this statement.

I'd still call it a while way from Democracy, I don't think genuine, stable Democracy has ever existed in a Muslim country (Turkey & Indonesia are highly dubious) so far tbh.

What do you mean by "dubious"?

It's hard to represent though, one of the main reasons Israel is so regionally powerful is simply because they are a modern liberal country surrounded by such hopelessly backward-thinking and reactionary cultures, the only well-off ones being so because of unearned oil-money.

It's not unearned, and as stated before, Israel is so regionally powerful because of outside help.

Though I think Islam has always been far more of a political-ideology/regressive legal-code than a genuine religion, so I'm really not the person to ask.

So you don't care what religion anybody is, eh?


Forgive me in advance, but the fact is that you are just coming off as having some denigrative and oft stereotypical views on certain subjects to certain people, including Tomorrow's Dawn and myself.

Of course, this is completely disregarding your suggestions for DoC, a good majority of which I find good, and some I find fantastic. I merely disagree with Israel, and with some of your seemingly more "blunt" points as shown above.

EDIT:
Bringing up the Israel suggestion (& I am probably not the first person to do so) does not make me some sort of neo-con Zionist racist. I am not Jewish, and both Caucasians and Slavs are often very antisemitic anyway.

At this, you are most definitely not the first. I don't get why everyone wants Israel, but oh well, to each his own. :p
 
Chill out, I'm not "denigrating" other peoples opinion, I think I am giving reasonable opinions to why I disagree, I am not just saying "your idea sucks".

Bringing up the Israel suggestion (& I am probably not the first person to do so) does not make me some sort of neo-con Zionist racist. I am not Jewish, and both Caucasians and Slavs are often very antisemitic anyway.

I don't think you have the right idea.

When I'm talking about you denigrating things, I'm not talking about you denigrating other people's opinions (of which sometimes you happen to do as well, but we're not talking about that here). I'm talking about the times where you happen to try to make a point, and have to put something else down in the process.
Mostly your denigrating statements are directed towards Tibet and Islam but lo and behold,
in this very post that I'm replying to, you just accused Caucasians and Slavs of anti-Semitism with quite the broad over-generalizing comment.
Do you see it? You just tried to absolve yourself of any charge of bigotry with a statement that screams bigotry.

I am not a bigot, I don't care what religion anybody is, I am only mentioning historical record. Perhaps if you actually (including an "actually" in a post make anyone look angry) had lived in a non-Democratic country, been to a Muslim country or any country under recent Turkish/Arab occupation or you would understand. I am not trying to get talk started on politics, why are my political views even relevant to a Mod board?

Well I hate to put you down here, but I stayed in the PRC for a month in the/a slums/rundown apartment complex of Shenzhen.
As for Muslim countries, no, I have not been to a Muslim country.
No one wants you to start talk on politics but you keep injecting your political as well as cultural prejudices into many of your posts.

Having strong opinions does not make me a "bigot", text is hard to convey subtleties of emotion, so perhaps you should think about giving someone the benifit of the doubt before going on to angry accusative rant calling people names. Thanks.

That is incorrect.
Having strong opinions can indeed make you a bigot if they are prejudices as you have displayed.
Prejudices are opinions too, that's why they also happen to be protected under free speech laws.
Again, I'm not preventing you from holding these prejudices, but having them comes at a price, and that price is your credibility.

As well, it is simple to convey emotion and motive through the written word, although if I understand correctly, English is not your first language.
But it all comes down to the composition of your statements and the words you choose.
Bair's choice quotes of things that you have said in the past are also telling as well.
The thing is, the benefit of the doubt has been provided to you before,
but as this is a public forum, your words are on record.

And you cannot argue against yourself, or at least the evidence preserving your past quotes.
 
Must not....must not...
No, you are not accusing in reason.
"Screams Bigotry" (those italics) that's a bit much, perhaps you heard of the Armenian Genocide? Ethnic tensions can run as high in the Dagestan/Sarkartvelo/Chechnya region than anywhere in the world, I have met real bigtos as you call them.
Of course not all cultures are equal, anybody who convinces himself otherwise would be self-deluding, things like polygamy and blood feuds are objectively stupid.
I'm not "accusing", of course I'm not tarring a whole people with one brush, but if you look at the writings a broad range of figures from this area of Dostoevski, Gogol', Pushkin, Lermontov, Frit, Tovmas Terzian, Gorki, Chekhov ect. ect. ect. there is a general trend.
And I am Caucasian, can you be racist against yourself? Wait... don't answer that.


Of course a ugly dispute has to appear on this thread.
 
Must not....must not...
No, you are not accusing in reason.
"Screams Bigotry" (those italics) that's a bit much, perhaps you heard of the Armenian Genocide? Ethnic tensions can run as high in the Dagestan/Sarkartvelo/Chechnya region than anywhere in the world, I have met real bigtos as you call them.

Reason (taken from Merriam-Webster)= c : a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense; especially :
something (as a principle or law) that supports a conclusion or explains a fact <the reasons behind her client's action>

Looking back on my post (and Bair's), I have everything I need to support the reason.
You don't deny that you like to make sweeping, over-generalizing statements
and undermine/denigrate different cultures and religions.
In fact, your quotes are on record proving such.

Let's see what the definition of bigot is:

bigot (also taken from Merriam-Webster): a person who is obstinately or
intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially :
one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

A small, politically impotent, technologically backward, perpetually impoverished, numerically small people with no contributions to world if you don't count Westerners adopting their idiosyncatic reading of Buddhism as the dominant fashionable coffee-house 'exotic' religion?
If they weren't brutally annexed by one of world's nastiest and biggest governments, what average Joe would have even heard of them?

Though I think Islam has always been far more of a political-ideology/regressive legal-code than a genuine religion, so I'm really not the person to ask.

Pavel, I have no doubt that there are others more bigoted than you.
However, that is very fallacious logic considering your situation here.
It's "the pot calling the kettle black" if you've ever heard that expression before.
These posts, among others show though, that the very definition of a bigot applies to you.

Of course not all cultures are equal, anybody who convinces himself otherwise would be self-deluding, things like polygamy and blood feuds are objectively stupid.

Please clarify and elaborate.

I'm not "accusing", of course I'm not tarring a whole people with one brush, but if you look at the writings a broad range of figures from this area of Dostoevski, Gogol', Pushkin, Lermontov, Frit, Tovmas Terzian, Gorki, Chekhov ect. ect. ect. there is a general trend.

You're still generalizing. Doesn't help your argument or your defense (of which this was originally).

And I am Caucasian, can you be racist against yourself? Wait... don't answer that.

As for your last query, why yes, a person can be racist against their own ethnic group.
Take James David Manning for example or Michelle Malkin.
Two very-well known self-hating individuals, or at least,
known for making unfounded and self-hating comments towards their own ethnic groups.

Anyways, it does not appear that I'd be able to convince you otherwise.
Again, you're on record with bigoted and denigrating statements against many different cultures, people and an entire religion.
If you're okay with that hurting your credibility, then by all means, please continue.
Keep that in mind whenever you're making a post.
 
It's amazing how any discussion about Israel ends up turning into a major war. Civfanatics is like the real world, I guess.
 
Some people take games too seriously.

If you want Israel in game you can build your own modmod and not make others to do it.
 
I am mostly Buddhist, but I must say Pavel's assessment of Tibet is spot on. I don't find it bigoted. I find it objective.

In general regarding his statements, I've heard all of them many times elsewhere, voiced by all kinds of people (such as Wikiislam and Conservapedia). To me none of them sounds particularly extreme or unreasonable, although I don't always agree.

I'd much rather he (and everyone else) state and defend their opinions here freely, than slap a "bigot" label on him to shut him up. There are few prices I won't pay for the freedom of speech.

So Pavel, please don't shut up. I for one will gladly listen to what you have to say.
 
Conservapedia aka Schlaflypedia is one huge lol.
 
It's amazing how any discussion about Israel ends up turning into a major war. Civfanatics is like the real world, I guess.

This thread has degenerated from a simple suggestion to fit of childish name calling. The last page has no discussion about the original subject.

This both is so absolutely true for every internet discussion about possibly sensitive objects.


And therefore: Moderator Action: Thread closed.
If Leoreth feels a desire to include Israel at some point, then he can feel free to ask for reopening the thread, but else it will stay closed.
 
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