It should be "TURKS", not OTTOMANS

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^Actually, kcbrett, I have had it out with Minci in a horrible way on this very thread. All that aside, he is stating that the Ottoman empire is really one of many Empires that the TURKS headed up. In this he is very right. Previously posted by bonaparte1, however states correctly, that America,England,France are not the Caucasian civs, and so why call Ottomans the Turkish Civ. I understand both points, and also the point that you can change the name of the Civ before starting the game, however I think he wants Firaxis to recognize this fact.

He is a very passionate person.

 

[Minci]

I believe english is a second language for you, and there-in lies the culprit. People mistook your meaning, and pounced.

Is it so obvious

Anyways, like I said, welcome to the site and I hope you find it more pleasant in the future.

Thank you.

So let me get thisstraight. You are now whining because Firaxis already fixed the "heinous" error of omitting the mighty turks from the original game? Isn't this complaint about 3 months late since they have already included your precious turkish empire in the expansion?

But hey, I am just a fictional American so what do I know. In fact, I am not really even here am I? A mere figment of my own active imagination.

I think this error can only be fixed by an apoligy or a real expansion with leaders, history, a more historically accurate unit and more leaders. It has been 4 games and it takes much more than an expansion-apoligy
And about the America thing... Do you ppl never stop or give up? Get a cup of coffee. I love America, at least more than George Bush

I guess i only question is what do you have against the ottomans. I am a history major in college and am fascinated by the ottoman empire and the power they wielded for so long. They are nothing to be ashamed of for sure. I do agree that Mustafa Kemal Atatürk should be a leader for the civ. Just as you mentioned that would be the same as Stalin and Russia. Just a question.

Ottoman means, In turkish, "OSMANLI" and its real meaning in english is "ppl who come from Osman". Osman was the first leader of the empire and that name comes from him.
Its because English ppl wont like to be see themselves as "Edwardians" or French as "Napolionians" or Germans as "Bismarkians", Russians as "Stalinians" etc.
I think i made the point clear

 

[Minci]

^^Actually, kcbrett, I have had it out with Minci in a horrible way on this very thread. All that aside, he is stating that the Ottoman empire is really one of many Empires that the TURKS headed up. In this he is very right. Previously posted by bonaparte1, however states correctly, that America,England,France are not the Caucasian civs, and so why call Ottomans the Turkish Civ. I understand both points, and also the point that you can change the name of the Civ before starting the game, however I think he wants Firaxis to recognize this fact.

He is a very passionate person.

OMG thank you very much for seeing my point even clearer than myself . I really mean it.
And this can be an answer to bonaparte1. You wont want to be called as "Washingtonians" (And hey, I read about him and he is a good leader. No offence in Washingtonians adjective)

 

[Wodan]

I don't really have anything I want to say, other than to tell a story. I definitely have an opinion, but this debate is too wound up for rational discourse.

Here's my story. I'll end with a question to Minci. The story applies to a number of places (not just Turkey), I think.

I used to work at a game company, as director of production. One of my duties was to oversee and manage worldwide production and distribution, specifically in non-English countries. For instance, we intentionally manufactured twice, once in the States and once in Belgium. The benefit of the latter is that it's inside the EU and thus gains two things: no import duties, and it's manufactured inside the EU economy (using EU labor rates and EU cost of goods).

We looked at translation into quite a few languages. A few, however, simply did not make economic sense. We actually looked at Turkish.

Consider that the Turkish average per capita income is about 8% that of the U.S. Even having no import duties and even with labor and cost of goods being 8% (which they certainly are not), the actual sales have to be in the economy of the target market. Can Take2 survive on 8% of its profit? Overhead and administration in a new country/language is going to eat up more than that. So, forget manufacturing in Turkey.

Now we come to simply importing into Turkey using English (or whatever) product. We have 3 main things impacting us here... transportation costs (across the Atlantic and Mediterranean), import duties into Turkey, and differences in target market income. Because of transportation and customs duties, the final retail cost is actually going to be higher than it is in the States, unless the distributor and/or retailer takes less of a profit (which he might, but even so). Let's assume these balance out and thus it's the same cost.

If it costs a person in the States, say, a day's wages to buy Civ4 and Warlords, then it is going to cost the same person one hundred hours in Turkey, that's over two weeks of work just to buy a computer game.

Do a lot of copies of Civ4 get sold in Turkey? I don't have access to Take2's sales data, but I would be surprised if it's even 0.001% of the world market. That means if 100,000 copies are sold, only 100 are in Turkey.

So should Firaxis put any effort into appeasing any potential Turkish market? No way. Turkish civs should be included to give consumers in the target markets variety. Yes, that's what I said: the main reason to include a Turkish civ at all is to give some kid in Topeka, Kansas something else to play when he gets bored of being the Romans. The same variety can be accomplished by including any of a number of other historical civs. Simply including a Turkish civ in the expansion satisfies the secondary desire to have a well-rounded historical representation.

And, don't kid yourself. Take2 and Firaxis are in this to make money. That kid in Topeka is worth more to them than a hundred people in Turkey. It's sad, but that's the simple fact of a world economy.

Question to Minci: how many Lira does it cost for Civ4 and Warlords?

Wodan

 

[bonaparte1]

Ottoman means, In turkish, "OSMANLI" and its real meaning in english is "ppl who come from Osman". Osman was the first leader of the empire and that name comes from him.
Its because English ppl wont like to be see themselves as "Edwardians" or French as "Napolionians" or Germans as "Bismarkians", Russians as "Stalinians" etc.
I think i made the point clear [/QUOTE]


That makes sense. I know the origins but never thought of it like that. But the empire they built and the culture they had still demands respect. That empire changed the world in 1453. Maybe this..................
The name of the Nation: Ottoman empire
Descriptions ..Turk and Turkish
as i dont think the ottomans thought of themselves as anything other than Turks.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

OMG thank you very much for seeing my point even clearer than myself . I really mean it.
And this can be an answer to bonaparte1. You wont want to be called as "Washingtonians" (And hey, I read about him and he is a good leader. No offence in Washingtonians adjective)

I had nothing against your opinion, Minci, I want you to know that . There was just a big misunderstanding that sparked a wildfire! To echo Wodan, welcome to the Forums!

 

[Minci]

And, don't kid yourself. Take2 and Firaxis are in this to make money. That kid in Topeka is worth more to them than a hundred people in Turkey. It's sad, but that's the simple fact of a world economy.

Yeah its a sad thing but I dont belive that more ppl from Rome, Persia, Chartage, Mali, Inca, Aztec, Babil, Inca or mongolia will buy this game

Answer: 99 YTL. It makes something like 60$

That makes sense. I know the origins but never thought of it like that. But the empire they built and the culture they had still demands respect. That empire changed the world in 1453. Maybe this..................
The name of the Nation: Ottoman empire

Yeah, I am talking about the adjective form, But can tell the same for the country. It would be better to see us as ourselves . You can still earn money while respecting other ppl

 

[Crighton]

Ouch, sad but true, anyway . . .

In defense of American civilization we did produce: Broadway, Hollywood, Rock & Roll, the Pentagon, the Statue of Liberty, the United Nations; I would further argue the Internet as being an American Wonder of the World as well as the Appollo Program and the Manhattan Projects. I don't think any of the current CIV roster of Wonders orriginated with the Ottomans or the Turks (though if you wanted an argument could be made that Trukish people under the Byzantines did produce the Hague Sophia).

 

[Minci]

I wont answer anymore ridiculious posts about american-Turkish comparison. There are the Sultanahmet and Suleymaniye Mosques, Topkapi Palace In Istanbul; Ulucami in Bursa; Selimiye Mosque in Edirne. I think spiral Minaret is Ottoman-made like Statue of Liberty is French-made (I could be wrong). Many Madrasas. hagia-sophia is not Turkish-made, only its minares are Turkish-made. And many more palaces in Istanbul. But if you count Hollywood, come and see istanbul. The most beautiful city of the world . Broadway can be compared as Beyoglu St. in istanbul. A very beautiful place.
Rock&Roll-You wont want me to count the types of Turkish Music. Just imagine how many we can found in thousands of years .

If you would like to see those places, they could be count as wonders, beautiful places, Turkey is a very good and hospitable place. Be our guest.

Yeah they are not in the game but as wodan said "its only about money"

 

[Datian]

Ouch, sad but true, anyway . . .

In defense of American civilization we did produce: Broadway, Hollywood, Rock & Roll, the Pentagon, the Statue of Liberty, the United Nations; I would further argue the Internet as being an American Wonder of the World as well as the Appollo Program and the Manhattan Projects.

Older civilizations produced music (which englobes Rock & Roll I guess), movies (Hollywood), theater (Broadway), war (Pentagon), the concepts of freedom (Statue of Liberty, whose creator is Gustave Eiffel btw) and nations (UNO), rockets (Apollo), explosives (Manhattan). Ok, the computer is indeed an american invention.

Let's face it : two centuries is not history, it's a phase. See you in a millenium

 

[Minci]

Ok, the computer is indeed an american invention.

I knew it was a German invention
And pls. no more "Is America a nation" debate. Its about Turk Civilization and the ignorance of great cultures for money

 

[Crighton]

These were specific wonders we produced which CIV hails as wonders, not so much the tech behind them.

Otherwise some poor schlob who didn't even have a nationality let alone a civ to belong to gets credit for everything just because he invented fire.


That man was me by the way.

~C

EDIT:

1st) America is a nation, the debate was is it a Civilization.
2nd) "ignorance of great cultures for money" . . . . not sure what that's supposed to mean since it seems like you can get paid to be ignorant. Which if thats true SIGN ME UP theres tons of crap I don't know, might as well get paid for it.

 

[Minci]

1st) America is a nation, the debate was is it a Civilization.

It is not about that too. There is no debate concerning America. Got it?

2nd) "ignorance of great cultures for money" . . . . not sure what that's supposed to mean since it seems like you can get paid to be ignorant. Which if thats true SIGN ME UP theres tons of crap I don't know, might as well get paid for it.

Okay i will pay you 5$/day to ignore this thread

 

[Crighton]

Cute.

That's $5/day American right?

Your statment still doesn't make sense.

 

[Minci]

Okay okayy hit my second language to my face.
Its about the Ignorance of Fraxis. They Ignore Great cultures and historical things to make more money and sell better in market.
But the surprising thing is; they wont sell worse if you add cultures as they were. You would only need to do more research and pay some more time and attention.
For example Europa Universalis did pay that attention and it didnt sell any worse (it couldnt do any worse )
I dont care if the American or Eurpean ppl know Turks as Ottomans. We are Turks, not Ottomans. We have written history. We changed and shaped it, but we, Turks, did it; not the Ottomans.
If this is the reason they put it as Ottomans. Try to sell some history books and teach your ppl first, because no Turk recognize italians because of Rome. Or we dont recognize the French ppl because of Napoleon. Or call germans the Bismarkians.
Most of the world know Turkish ppl as un-educated Barbarians but we never called any nation with the name of an empire they built.
It is really irritating to be recognized as something else.
Dont you think so Ceasarians and Tokugawians?

 

[Wodan]

Its about the Ignorance of Fraxis. They Ignore Great cultures and historical things to make more money and sell better in market.

They didn't ignore Turkish peoples, they put one of your civs in the Warlords expansion.

At one point up above, you argued that it should be in the main game, not an expansion. Which of the other civs from the main game would you suggest have been removed, in order to make room for one of the Turkish civs? Spain? Russia?

Most of the world know Turkish ppl as un-educated Barbarians

Why in the world would people think that?

Wodan

 

[Minci]

They didn't ignore Turkish peoples, they put one of your civs in the Warlords expansion.

At one point up above, you argued that it should be in the main game, not an expansion. Which of the other civs from the main game would you suggest have been removed, in order to make room for one of the Turkish civs? Spain? Russia?

Must they remove one to add another? I dont know the exact number of civs in the core game but cant it be one or two more?
We are talking about Turks.
*- The reason the Great Wall was built. Dont tell me Mongolians, we are just different tribes. If you dig deep we are the same. Hun, Gokturk and many more Turkish Empires whole history is about chinese wars.
Everyone counts China but cant count Turks. Whats the problem? Blind?

*- You have Horseback archer but dont have the inventer. Its our and Mongolians spec unit already.

*- Great and Mighty Rome was also afraid of Atilla a Turkish ruler who has nearly taken Rome.

*- Great Persian empire looked puny near Ottoman Empire. Great Byzantium Empire, the last standing remenant of Rome disappered under the feet of Turks.

*- Only Rome had the power to hold a grasp of known world, more powerful than Ottoman Empire in the whole history.

*-Did you ever see the maps of Turkish Empires. From Morocco to Persia, from Arabia to Russia and from Hazar sea to Vien.

*-Stopped most of the crusades and didnt get destroyed or even loose power against many crusades.

*-Changed an Era. Name other nations who changed eras.
*-Taken Constantinapole. The biggest and best defended city of that era.
*-Had no challenging power in europe, nor Asia or Africa for 100-200 years.
*-Survived for 600 years with the same government.
*-May be not great wonders of the world but built many wonders. Changed the face of the planet. Had many good leaders and commanders who are still remembered and talked about.
*-If you sum the area of all the Turkish Empires you will get The biggest area of the world from China to Vien and also North Africa.
*-A great nation with a great culture, history, power, and everything you can imagine in a nation.
*-400 years of Holy Rulership of Islam.
*-An empire, who can stop an event thousands of miles away with just threatening.
*-An empire, whoes armies march in to europe but couldn't find an opposing army to fight.

I dont call a nation to get out of civ to make place for Turks.
I only want the place, a nation already deserved to take.
These things I counted, cant be counted for most of the civ nations in the game.
I am okay for, putting those nations for the market in those countries. But showing a huge nation as something it isnt; is unacceptable.

Why in the world would people think that?

Ppl know very few of Turks. Here.. I am writing the deeds of Turks even I dont know most of them. Even a worldwide game dont know and show real us, and as a result I am a little sensitive about it.

Thank you..
End of the story.

 

[bonaparte1]

hey minci(sp)

Welcome to America in a sense. We take a lot of pride in our "civ" and culture. We take alot of things personally even when they are not meant that way. I think the Ottomans are just right but think that maybe the description should be changed to Turk and Turkish. Attaturk(sp) should be included becuase of his lingering faith in the Turkish people and not accepting defeat in the Turkish war of independence. I totally agree with you there. But i refuse to accept that Ottoman should be dropped. Either way I change what i can anyway.

 

[wioneo]

Silly not American person, did you really expect that you would be able to insult our country and get away with it? I believe that you completely destroyed any chance of any real discussion which could have gone on in the topic. I personally agree with the post at the beginning of this topic now, but if so many people weren't already verbally abusing you, I might just join in

 

[Minci]

did you really expect that you would be able to insult our country and get away with it?

I didnt insult it. I couldnt give the meaning i want to a sentence. English is my second language.