It should be "TURKS", not OTTOMANS

[Revolutionary]

the name of empire is fine as Ottomans but I agree the people should be Turkish, that being said, America or the United States of America is not made up or any less original then any other, ok so what if it is a mix of many others, so are alot of the civs repersented in the game

what is the US/American? English + Spanish + German + French + many others...

what is England/English? Celts + Romans + Germanic (Anglo, Saxon, Jutes) + Vikings/Normans/Scandinavians

what is Spain/Spanish and Portugal/Portuguese? native Iberians + Celts + Carthagians + Greeks + Romans + Germanic (Visigoths) + Moors (Arabs and Berber)

What is France/French? Celts + Greeks + Romans + Germanic (Franks, Burgundi)

What is Russia/Russian? Slavs + Vikings/Scandinavians + other Asian steppe peoples

What is Italy/Italian? Romans + Greeks + Germanic (Ostrogoths, Lombards)

What is Roman empire/Romans? the people of the city of Rome + the surrounding Latin peoples + Etruscans + Greeks, and this was in its early existance as many other peoples became an important part of the Roman culture and people and what it meant to be Roman)

I could go on....


whats my point? simple very very few civilizations are actually original and those few that were they originated in Ancient Times with most being long gone

so all those people bashing America as a civilization, its culture, and its roots are simply ignorant, name me a country/empire/civilizations in existance today that hasn't been influenced by other cultures...

 

[whb]

First to unwrap blitzkrieg a little from his American flag: The Three Gorges Dam is Chinese, not American (you're thinking of the much smaller Hoover Dam in earlier civ games). The Ottomon's territorial losses in WW1 were by and large to British forces under Allenby (see Wikipedia for details) - the US wasn't very involved in that front of the war but was largely fighting elsewhere. The Ottomon empire wasn't around in WW2, so not much point bringing that old furfy up (gung-ho American claims to have won the war on their own are pretty much based on flag waving Hollywood movies rather than history)

As for Minci, the US has almost exactly the same status as a civilization as the English - a once-colony of a large empire (Rome/Britain) since populated by waves of migration from different countries (Angles,Saxons,Danes/every-country-you-can-think-of) that formed its own national identity and its own achievements. It's the same kind of nation-forming you'd find in most of the civilizations if you went back far enough. Including, I imagine, the Turks.

And also - I know you guys managed to get a very organised campaign to flood the polling for Time's "Man of the Century" with claims for Ataturk, but you're too late for the Firaxis poll -- they held it about a year ago, and the Ottomons were voted in and not Ataturk.

 

[Minci]

Hey you have given the example yourself and here.
You all say:
Ottoman Empire was the greatests of Turks and because of that it would be Ottoman Empire
If that is the idea:
It would be USA instead of American Empire because its name is USA not American. It has been USA and its still USA. Because it is the greatest empire of Americans
Now anybody get my point?

The British Empire did have most of the know world, and the Brits still in a way control the world.
You never toke Vienna, forget Constantinapole you all can have it. Russia, British, Austrian Empire and others did stand in the Ottomans way.
I never heard of the Ottomans being able to stop an event a thousand miles away just with a threat. Name other nations that changed eras? Britian, Russia, America, Rome, Greeks, i could go on. I am not sure if Constantinapole was the biggest and best city in the world. But yes the game should give the right name and call the Ottomans Turks, if you still play Civ 3 i am makeing a mod and the Ottomans will be call Turks, not Ottomans. If you want PM me and let me know some more leaders of the Ottoman Empire, and Any UU that would be good for them, besides the ones that came with the game, i am always looking for more. When it comes down to it the Turks have played a important role in history and they have been a member of NATO, which makes them the only non European, besides America member. So mabye we can write and make sure they change it by the time the nest expansion comes out.

*- Yeah Brits did take the control of most of the world and they are very important, may be more than Turks; but they never left unchallenged like the Rome or Chengis Khan or Ottoman did.

*- Vien was not important, the city of all the times was istanbul and yes we have it. The nations you count could only stop ottomans, they couldnt beat it in any means.

*- He stopped a ball in Paris, organized against him by the French Emperor. (Mehmet II). And hey ,i forgot, he invaded italy too

But thats not important. Dont you see my point.

 

[Loki cdn]

I think the point Minci is trying to make is that the Turks have an identifible history going back to the 9th Century BC. The "Ottomans" where simply one Turkish tribe. Comparably it would be like calling the Greeks, the "Athenians".

 

[whb]

Ok, the computer is indeed an american invention.

The computer is not "an american invention". It has a long and complex history involving rather a lot of different countries. It's just a popular myth that it's "an American invention" because until the 1960s most of the WW2-era early British, German, and Polish computers were still classified, so the only early ones people knew much about were American.

 

[whb]

*- Yeah Brits did take the control of most of the world and they are very important, may be more than Turks; but they never left unchallenged like the Rome or Chengis Khan or Ottoman did.

Not sure quite what you're trying to say here -- the Ottoman Empire certainly "left challenged" when it lost territory in WW2; and the British Empire certainly did leave some places without being challenged militarily (eg Australian independence in 1901, much of the Caribbean more recently, plus Malta and lots of other places)

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

First to unwrap blitzkrieg a little from his American flag: The Three Gorges Dam is Chinese, not American (you're thinking of the much smaller Hoover Dam in earlier civ games). The Ottomon's territorial losses in WW1 were by and large to British forces under Allenby (see Wikipedia for details) - the US wasn't very involved in that front of the war but was largely fighting elsewhere. The Ottomon empire wasn't around in WW2, so not much point bringing that old furfy up (gung-ho American claims to have won the war on their own are pretty much based on flag waving Hollywood movies rather than history)

As for Minci, the US has almost exactly the same status as a civilization as the English - a once-colony of a large empire (Rome/Britain) since populated by waves of migration from different countries (Angles,Saxons,Danes/every-country-you-can-think-of) that formed its own national identity and its own achievements. It's the same kind of nation-forming you'd find in most of the civilizations if you went back far enough. Including, I imagine, the Turks.

And also - I know you guys managed to get a very organised campaign to flood the polling for Time's "Man of the Century" with claims for Ataturk, but you're too late for the Firaxis poll -- they held it about a year ago, and the Ottomons were voted in and not Ataturk.

First, thanks for the info on the Dam, someone already corrected me tho.
Second... you can kiss my American butt. I am not wrapped up in an American flag, in fact I'm quite radically against most modern US policies. I also never said anything about America kicking the Ottomans butts, I simply stated that Ottoman butts were kicked. Never said Ottomans were around in WW2. And as for your claims on flag-waiving Hollywood in reference to WW2... don't be ignorant. Europe was pretty f**ked before US entered. No one says US did it on their own. Especially in the African campaign, I will always give most credit to the English in dismantling Rommel's Afrika Corps. But let's not fool ourselves, Europe was in some deep sh*t before America joined WW2. There, I'm done. Flag-waving and all.

 

[Genghis_Kai]

Hey Minci, I agree with you. I used Turks instead of Ottomans in my Giant Earth Map. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=184684

I can understand that making business is after all the aim of firaxis, but I can't agree simply because of that we should just do and give what ever the kids want! Afterall, it comes back to whether it is correct to use Ottoman instead of Turk, if all the other names are are of a different type. We are talking about using this terminology in a highly influential computer game!

So it comes back to what Firaxis has chosen to mean for the word "Civilization". From the civ that Firaxis has chosen, they seems to mean neither the race or the name of an empire (or other government form). It is somewhere between these two. For example,

English, not Anglo-saxon but also not Great Britian.
Chinese, not Han-Chinese but also not Tang Dynasty.
American, not USA.
Greece, not Macedon Empire
Indian, not Hindi but also not Mughal Empire.

Based on these examples, I think Turk or Turkish would be better than Ottoman because:

1) "Turk" or "Turkish" is a simple word (not like Anglo-Saxon or Han-Chinese that people would definitely argue it is too academic to use these terms)

2) A widely used english word (turkish Bread etc)

3) It can be easily associated with a modern country (Turkey).

4) Probably the most important of all, it is NOT a name of a specific empire that all the names chosen for the other 23 civs aren't as well.

 

[ShannonCT]

I can understand that making business is after all the aim of firaxis, but I can't agree simply because of that we should just do and give what ever the kids want! Afterall, it comes back to whether it is correct to use Ottoman instead of Turk, if all the other names are are of a different type. We are talking about using this terminology in a highly influential computer game!

I dont know how many kids were clammoring for the Ottoman empire, much less Mali or Korea. I think Firaxis takes great pains to create a fun interesting game that recognizes different civilizations and cultures, even those that aren't taught about in schools.

3) It can be easily associated with a modern country (Turkey).

I guess they thought of that and said, "If we put Turkey in the game, people are going to say 'Why Turkey? Why not Poland or Cambodia or Argentina?'. People are going to think of Turkey as a fairly minor country because it is not a major international player in the modern world and because they aren't going to know about Anatolia or the Golden Horde or the Seljuk Turks. But a good number of people are going to remember learning about the Ottoman empire because it's more recent and because they've studied WWI. Let's put the Ottoman empire in the game since that's the latest and greatest incarnation of the Turks. That will appeal to most Americans. We don't want to offend the Turks by ignoring the rest of their history, but we dont sell many copies of the game in Turkey."

4) Probably the most important of all, it is NOT a name of a specific empire that all the names chosen for the other 23 civs aren't as well.

There's some gray area here. For instance, the Aztec Empire started with one of the many city-states in central Mexico, Tenochtitlan. The areas that they conquered and absorbed into their empire contained peoples of the same Mexica ethnicity and the same Nahuatl language. So the term Aztec is very much an empire name and not a ethnicity, language, or culture name. Mexica would be equivalent to Turks, but would you rather play as the Aztecs or the Mexicas?

 

[whb]

First, thanks for the info on the Dam, someone already corrected me tho.
And as for your claims on flag-waiving Hollywood in reference to WW2... don't be ignorant. Europe was pretty f**ked before US entered.

You don't think Hollywood flag waves? You didn't know about, to use three very famous examples, U571 having its story altered to show an American crew capturing the Enigma (the Royal Navy crew that actually did it before the Americans even entered the war were still alive and a little put out by not being given credit...), The Great Escape movie having to include an American hero despite there being none involved in the event, Pierre Boule similarly having to alter The Bridge on the River Kwai movie script to include an American hero where his book (and the historical event it was based on) had none... My goodness, if you don't think Hollywood flag waves and alters history, you do have your head a long way up your posterior!

Americans have an awkward habit also of forgetting things like Germany had already lost the Battle of Britain so invading there had ceased to be an option for them; the fact that the Russian winter was the biggest turning point in the war... the US coming in late as a fresh pair of legs and enormous army certainly helped a very great deal, but your countrymen in Hollywood often do overstate the case to the point of ignoring all other participants.

 

[Armorydave]

They should put an Armenian Civ in the game. That would really get the Turk crowd riled up.

I doubt Attaturk got serious consideration from the game designers. Although he is the father of modern Turkey he is not well known in the West and regarded unfavorably by a decent percentage of those who do know of him. All it takes is one game designer of Armenian heritage to insure he never sees the light of day in Civ.

I largely agree with WHB's posts on this thread.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

You don't think Hollywood flag waves? You didn't know about, to use three very famous examples, U571 having its story altered to show an American crew capturing the Enigma (the Royal Navy crew that actually did it before the Americans even entered the war were still alive and a little put out by not being given credit...), The Great Escape movie having to include an American hero despite there being none involved in the event, Pierre Boule similarly having to alter The Bridge on the River Kwai movie script to include an American hero where his book (and the historical event it was based on) had none... My goodness, if you don't think Hollywood flag waves and alters history, you do have your head a long way up your posterior!

Americans have an awkward habit also of forgetting things like Germany had already lost the Battle of Britain so invading there had ceased to be an option for them; the fact that the Russian winter was the biggest turning point in the war... the US coming in late as a fresh pair of legs and enormous army certainly helped a very great deal, but your countrymen in Hollywood often do overstate the case to the point of ignoring all other participants.

I never said that Hollywood doesn't flag wave, I said I don't. Those movies don't fool my friends or myself with their false insertion of Americans, but thanks for the info on them.

My countrymen in Hollywood are often very ignorant, however I am not. The Russian winter took its toll on both the Russian soldiers and the Germans. It's not like the cold only effected the invaders. It was the victory at Stalingrad which was one of the larger turning points in the war. However,

British historians regard the battle as running from 9 July to 31 October 1940, which represented the most intense period of daylight air raiding. German historians begin the battle in mid-August 1940 and end it in May 1941, on the withdrawal of the bomber units in preparation for the attack on the USSR

It occurs to me that the Battle of Britain might have happened a little too early in the war for you to say that it was a major factor in defeating the Germans. Perhaps it made invasion impossible, but England is not the whole or even majority of Europe and so my initial statement stands.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

...I largely agree with WHB's posts on this thread.

That is a shame as he has posted many replies which have nothing directly to do with my statement.

Maryland, huh... nice to see a sense of nationalism in our youth.

 

[Alpha_Infantry]

Hey you have given the example yourself and here.
You all say:
Ottoman Empire was the greatests of Turks and because of that it would be Ottoman Empire
If that is the idea:
It would be USA instead of American Empire because its name is USA not American. It has been USA and its still USA. Because it is the greatest empire of Americans
Now anybody get my point?

No.
USA is a acronym for United States of America
Our name is still America, we're just stating that our states are united
We're americans, our country is America

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

^^Minci's point is that people from Columbia, Mexico, Canada, and Argentina are also Americans. The game only represents the USA, though they are called Americans (in the game). He's saying that (and I've heard many 'Americans' say this as well) the civ in the game should be called United Statesians...

Well, maybe he's not saying exactly that. But something to that effect.

 

[Revolutionary]

Hey you have given the example yourself and here.
You all say:
Ottoman Empire was the greatests of Turks and because of that it would be Ottoman Empire
If that is the idea:
It would be USA instead of American Empire because its name is USA not American. It has been USA and its still USA. Because it is the greatest empire of Americans
Now anybody get my point?

well the thing about USA or "American" is that what else can we call the culture and its civilization? USian? Unitian? Statians? see doesn't look or sound right but American makes much more sense and sounds more natural


As to your point I see what you mean, you want all the Turkish peoples to be included into one representation i.e. one civ even thought they were never united just like the Celts or Sumerians also never united

including all the Turkic peoples into one representation or "empire" would be like what they did in the game with the Greek Empire representing all Greeks outside Greece even though all Greek colonies and peoples weren't united even under Alexander's Empire which excluded Greeks in Italy, Sicily, etc.

so it would be "Turkish or Turkic Empire" and not "Ottoman Empire" or "Ottoman Turkish Empire"

This does seem like a better solution

 

[HolyOne]

You don't think Hollywood flag waves? You didn't know about, to use three very famous examples, U571 having its story altered to show an American crew capturing the Enigma (the Royal Navy crew that actually did it before the Americans even entered the war were still alive and a little put out by not being given credit...), The Great Escape movie having to include an American hero despite there being none involved in the event, Pierre Boule similarly having to alter The Bridge on the River Kwai movie script to include an American hero where his book (and the historical event it was based on) had none... My goodness, if you don't think Hollywood flag waves and alters history, you do have your head a long way up your posterior!

Americans have an awkward habit also of forgetting things like Germany had already lost the Battle of Britain so invading there had ceased to be an option for them; the fact that the Russian winter was the biggest turning point in the war... the US coming in late as a fresh pair of legs and enormous army certainly helped a very great deal, but your countrymen in Hollywood often do overstate the case to the point of ignoring all other participants.

I agree with you, and I want to add another example. There is that Stallone film, "Escape To Victory", or something, I'm not quite sure (Pelé is aso starring in it). It is an adaptation of a hungarian story (set in a work camp in Yugoslavia). In the end of the original film, everyone is gunned down after defeating the germans. But the Stallone version has that very dumb happy ending, because Hollywood cannot comprehend anything else, but happy endings.

blitzkrieg1980: I already read your reply to the above post, I just wanted to add this example.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I agree with you, and I want to add another example. There is that Stallone film, "Escape To Victory", or something, I'm not quite sure (Pelé is aso starring in it). It is an adaptation of a hungarian story (set in a work camp in Yugoslavia). In the end of the original film, everyone is gunned down after defeating the germans. But the Stallone version has that very dumb happy ending, because Hollywood cannot comprehend anything else, but happy endings.

blitzkrieg1980: I already read your reply to the above post, I just wanted to add this example.

Understood... but please please please... Stallone? Of all films, one that stars Stallone? Poor example.

Its like using a romance novel as a literary source for a serious discussion about marriage!

 

[HolyOne]

Understood... but please please please... Stallone? Of all films, one that stars Stallone? Poor example.

Its like using a romance novel as a literary source for a serious discussion about marriage!

I know, I know...
But still. The protagonist of the original film was Imre Sinkovits (R.I.P.), one of the greatest actor of the country (actor, not "film star" !!). And that's why it hurts me so badly, seeing the film with the qualities of Stallone

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Stallone? Qualities? HAHA! I guess he wrote the Rocky theme song, so that's a quality, right?