Italian spawning question

[youtien]

If you play 3000 BC scenario Italian, you'd very likely to flip Milan as capital upon spawning. Many players don't like this inland city, although it is actually a fine city.

So, can we choose auto-raze or flip as it is?

By the way, I just found out a max strategy for Italians: rush France, ignore Rome until you fully conquered France. It worked out very fine.

 

[Hojsimpson]

Is a suggestion the raze -flip?
I'd prefer Genova rather than Milan.

 

[BenZL43]

I would suggest Italy to always spawn if Human is not // control no European or North African or Levant civilization // city.
Effectively, Italy should spawn if Human is:

{Khmer, Indonesia, China, Korea, Japan, India, Tamil, Mughals, Persia, Mali, Congo, Maya, Aztec, Inca}

 

[citis]

I would propose exactly the opposite. If Italy is too far from a civ it has no impact, so there is no reason for spawn. On the contrary if you play near Italy, spawning makes it more challenging.

 

[BenZL43]

IIRC, since it's been a long time ago back to v1.73 or something, the reason to make Italy a conditional spawn that hard to fulfill is because it's annoying a city you've conquered flip away, especially if it's good and useful like Rome. I see no point though why Italy spawn has to be conditional, except if Human = Rome, cz France Spain Byzantium Viking etc has nothing to do with Italy for their UHV anyway iirc.

e.g. I'm Spanish, I control Italy and suddenly Italia spawn and flip Italy from me. What makes that differences than suddenly Argentina spawn and flip Argentine from me?

 

[citis]

IIRC, since it's been a long time ago back to v1.73 or something, the reason to make Italy a conditional spawn that hard to fulfill is because it's annoying a city you've conquered flip away, especially if it's good and useful like Rome. I see no point though why Italy spawn has to be conditional, except if Human = Rome, cz France Spain Byzantium Viking etc has nothing to do with Italy for their UHV anyway iirc.

e.g. I'm Spanish, I control Italy and suddenly Italia spawn and flip Italy from me. What makes that differences than suddenly Argentina spawn and flip Argentine from me?

Rome doesn't flip to Italy. There are just two cities Venice and Rome, if you make sure they are conquered Italy doesn't spawn, it's simple.

 

[BenZL43]

Rome doesn't flip indeed. I am unsure if Venice was the main concern so I use Rome as example. But if I remembered correctly, back to v1.73 which is many years ago, flipping cities was one of the concern why Italy is made a hardy-conditional spawn civilization, beside to prevent Italy spawn while Rome still alive. (I'm the one that took that screenshot haha of Italian Spawn and Roman Rome... I think with Byzantine something as well; but probably have lost the screenshot now)

 

[DC123456789]

The only city that Italy will flip in a usual game is Milan and/or Venice. I really see no reason why it should be a conditional spawn, especially since Italy is so easy to crush if you actually try.

 

[VGL]

Yea.I wish Leoreth remove the conditional spawn for them(and also for Brazil)

 

[Hippo8085]

The only city that Italy will flip in a usual game is Milan and/or Venice. I really see no reason why it should be a conditional spawn, especially since Italy is so easy to crush if you actually try.

It is conditional so that there is a point in taking over Italy early, particularly for the Holy Roman UHV in 1200 AD. One would be taking Venice only to lose it for 100 years and have a whole bunch of buildings destroyed when it is retaken.

Yea.I wish Leoreth remove the conditional spawn for them(and also for Brazil)

I would actually be for more conditional spawns, not less. Remember that for almost every spawn, particularly the ones that are already conditional, there is a civilization that potentially suffers because of it, in the case of Brazil, Portugal does.

This discussion is actually giving me an idea for a thread... especially the part about 1.73.

 

[Daedwartin]

Also, there isn't any rel justification historically to make them always spawn. Italia was very much a geographical construct by the time of the HRE. It was pretty much a region where France, the Hapsburg, and the Spanish, who end up being part of the Hapsburg empire anyways, fought over to control. Sure, States like Venice were strong enough to resist invasion...because they had one of the largest fleets in the Mediterranean. But the Rest? Milan got conquered, then liberated, conquered, than eventually just ended up a Spanish Possession, released, and conquered again. And released again. And annexed by austria. Genoa, pretty much the same fate, eventually ending up part of Sardina-Piedmont. Papal States had the Pope for why they weren't conquered. Tuscany and that area? Split between being conquered and being too weak to matter. Naples spent pretty much centuries as a Spanish possession.

Italy was pretty much a area you conquered. Italy Spawning is basically Italia as a region deciding enough is enoug, we will fight back united.

 

[VGL]

It is conditional so that there is a point in taking over Italy early, particularly for the Holy Roman UHV in 1200 AD. One would be taking Venice only to lose it for 100 years and have a whole bunch of buildings destroyed when it is retaken.



I would actually be for more conditional spawns, not less. Remember that for almost every spawn, particularly the ones that are already conditional, there is a civilization that potentially suffers because of it, in the case of Brazil, Portugal does.

This discussion is actually giving me an idea for a thread... especially the part about 1.73.

Portugal will not suffer THAT much.And plus,they never collapse after Brazil is spawned(they won't suffer A BIT)