ITNESI History Thread

[das]

Greater then some others I could mention. And the one most likely to die soon. After Portugal, ofcourse.

 

[Dachs]

Ah.

Maybe I can reverse the unbelievably bad trend in my stats with stories.

 

[alex994]

He'll only bring you into this over your dead body... Literally.

You know as well as i do that i will NEVER break that treaty Han made with Hong Kong in any IT and will try to enforce it during the BTs.

 

[BananaLee]

Saying that worries me, Alex.
Could it be a classic 'feint east, attack west' strategy?|

 

[Dachs]

List of the Kings of Rome​

Pre-Tarquinii Dynasty (Age of Elected Kings)

Romulus (753 - 741)
Every inhabitant of the so-called "Transpoenic" knows the story of Romulus and Remus: their birth by a Vestal Virgin, hiding them from a vengeful King, early nursing by a wolf, and their murder of the King. Romulus founded his new village on the Palatine Hill, and Remus founded another on the Aventine. The two brothers quarreled, and eventually Romulus killed Remus. He populated his city with men and orphans from all over Latium, and almost immediately began a few wars against other Etruscan states. It was Romulus who began the tradition of a general's triumph after his first victory over the Volscians, and after his death he, and his wife, were deified and given a place in the sky with Jupiter.

Numa Pompilius (741 - 732)
Before his death, Romulus decreed that successor kings of Rome must be elected by the patricians, those original settlers of Rome who could name their fathers, and thus were not orphans. The patricians elected Numa, a wise man schooled in all the Sabine race knew, according to history. Numa went to Croton in the south, to Syracusan lands, to seek more wisdom, and in the teachings of Pythagoras he found it. There were few wars in this period, although Rome did extend her territory to include the salt port of Ostia and won a victory over the Volscii.

Tullus Hostilius (732 - 703)
Tullus Hostilius, the next king, earned his surname well. He prosecuted wars with the Latin tribes vigorously, and then built up a massive army for the proposed invasion of Clusium, controlled by Lars Porsena, the most powerful Etruscan king. Of this period not much is known, but the Romans considered Tullus Hostilius a worthy successor to Romulus and Numa. A list of his building projects would take up far too much space, but he expanded the pomerium of Rome and built better walls, and enlarged the Forum and the Cloaca Maxima.

First Tarquinii Dynasty (Hellenic Wars period)

Lucius Tarquinius I Magnus (703 - 627)
Tarquin I was possibly the greatest Roman king excepting Romulus himself. Upon ascension, he first dissolved the patrician elector system and declared a monarchy. Romans went along with this, expecting great things from a man audacious enough to seize more power. Among his first acts was the unprecedented sale of his hometown, Tarquinii, to the Clusians to secure the northern border. After that, a bold expedition was planned, in conjunction with Mermerus Midylos' Sparta. Much of Rome's army was to march south, through Campania, and attack Corinthian colonies around Metapontum, establishing settlements as they attacked. Tarquin first changed the Roman war machine from a hoplite-based one, like the Greeks, to a heavy infantry, more similar to the Portuguese and Iberian tribes.

The foray into Corinth went splendidly, and major victories were scored at Metapontum and Brandanus. In two decades Rome controlled all Italy from the Clusian border to the Gulf of Tarentum, excepting a small strip of land at Ancona where obstinate Samnite tribes lived. Some expeditions into Samnium were foiled for the next twenty years, as well. However, a problem arose in 680: Syracuse demanded the lands formerly belonging to Corinth. When they were rebuffed, they attacked Latium while Romans were occupied with another invasion including Sparta, that of Athenian Taras (Tarentum), and another attack on Bruttium. By 660, however, the Sicels had almost reached the walls of Rome and were beginning a siege. The Romans rallied their army, finished the invasion of Bruttium, and launched a daring night attack on the Syracusans with incendiary animals, driving them, and their Clusian allies, into great confusion. As soon as dawn's rosy fingertips touched the morning sky, the Romans formed into an order with weaker troops in the center and their experienced men on the wings. The battle of Ostia proceeded as the Sicels fought hard in the center, and broke through. But the two Roman wings collapsed in on them, and they were surrounded. Breaking away for their ships, a slaughter ensued, and many were killed. A few biremes were even towed to Ostia by enterprising Romans, who incorporated them into their navy.

An alliance was signed with Syracuse at the moment the Carthaginians launched an invasion, but the Romans, afraid of Punic power, refused to honor the deal. Sicilia fell, the only black mark on the reign of Tarquin I. In his later years, Tarquin sent an expedition, more powerful than before, into Samnium, and defeated the warriors there once and for all at the Caudine Forks. At his death, Tarquinius left a single heir, and the impetus for Rome to rebuild after the devastating Hellenic Wars.

Lucius Tarquinius II Pisistrus (627 - 624)
The brief three-year term of Tarquin II was marred by a few pirate raids, which the weak Roman navy could not counter. A few aqueducts were finished in Latin cities, and Roman infrastructure was improved, but nothing overly important happened. After his death, with no heir to succeed him, the patricians independently re-instated the election process. Although Tarquin the First's brother tried to ascend the throne, he was beaten back by a patrician mob, and had to sulk quietly at his home in Baiae until his own descendants could reclaim the throne.

Interdynastic Period

Aurelius Maximus (622 - 609)
Aurelius' time as King of the Roman League was uneventful. He forced the people to confer upon him the title "the Greatest", but the only thing that could possibly have earned it was his law forcing the Scipii family to construct seven ships and pay for the entire navy. This law would not be revoked until the time of the Republic.

Servius Tullius (609 - 583)
Servius' long reign resulted in a renewed anti-Gaul alliance with Clusium and the establishment of a mutual defensive line in the Po river valley. Here, too, many building projects were pursued. Like many Roman kings, his time was relatively unimportant, for the Arvernii would attack and destroy the defenses in 574 at the battle of Mutina. Interestingly enough, it was rumored that a Tarquin, Tanaquil, helped elect him by using her family's vast fortune to bribe voters on voting day at the Campus Martius. He was murdered by his son-in-law, also a Tarquin, L. Tarquinius Superbus (Tarquin the Proud).

Galbus Othus (583 - 581)
When Othus was king, a small revolt arose in Campania, around the city of Nola. He left the Eternal City to crush it, and fought along his millennia for two years before dying at the edge of victory, at the climactic Fifteenth Battle of Nola. His death could probably have been postponed for a few decades if his idiot commanding general, L. Cadornus, hadn't ordered many and repeated attacks on the walled city.

Spurius Vecellinus (581 - 520)
Spurius took the throne after Othus' death, and with the help of his general, C. Vespius, (replacing Cadornus after the latter's mysterious death in the public baths) finished the siege of Nola and eradicated the Campanian revolt. His reign was marked with overall public happiness, although many members of the military establishment were "purged" after the disasters at Nola previously, and the current Roman officer tradition generated from avoiding anything like that purge again through good generalship. Vecellinus also was fairly harsh to the Tarquinii, taking away land in Campania for no apparent reason. The current patriarch, L. Tarquinius Vulso, was arrested late in 539, sparking a patrician-on-patrician political struggle that ended in Vecellinus' death, in his nineties. Many at the time thought it strange that such a tyrant could survive for so long.

Marcus Camillus (519 - 509)
After one of the few interregna in Roman League history, Camillus succeeded the tyrannical Vecellinus, and succeeded diplomatically and domestically where the other had miserably failed. The original agreements with Kartyria, then just the city of Kartyre and some surrounding country, were signed, and, as usual, sealed with the oath of Jupiter Lapis. Camillus also made Treaties of Friendship with Byzantium and Carthage, and instituted land reforms that increased the amount of public land available, and dismantled off-limits military bases that still survived from the times of Tarquin the Great. Camillus' relatively short reign was largely a success, although increased Gallic raids into Clusium resulted in the second Battle of the Allia River, ending in a narrow Roman victory. Interestingly enough, the Romans were commanded by one of the Fabii, initiators of the original battle.

Lucius Regilus (509)
Regilus' time as King was brief, only two days. He is only remembered as ordering the army to burn down part of Rome to prevent a large patrician and plebeian mob from attacking the Capitoline to reinstate the Tarquinii dynasty. His measures, fortunately, failed, as the army units inside the city turned on him and helped the People take the city.

Second Tarquinii Dynasty (Age of Stagnation)

Lucius Tarquinius III Postumius (509 - 441)
So named for his birth after his father's death (as is the Roman custom, "Postumius" or "Postumia" is the name commonly given to those children), Postumius first took control of the mob in Rome and settled them down with a speech about "seizing the future". His long reign, typical of Roman kings in this period, was marked by another Clusio-Roman defense agreement against Arvernii Gauls, and the one major battle of this period in Gallo-Roman history, that of Patavium (490), an overwhelming allied victory over the Arvernii commander Commius. Postumius then re-set the hereditary rules and forbade further elections.

Lucius Tarquinius IV Imperiosis (441 - 437)
The four-year reign of Tarquin IV was mainly one of the League King assuming more power than ever before, and the persecution of plebeians. He was murdered by his brother, who took the throne not long after.

Lucius Tarquinius V Saverrio (437 - 404)
A brief foray into the Byzantine Peloponnesus (which included the battle of Mantineia, 418) lasted until 404, when the Byzantines bribed Saverrio to stop the war. Immediately after he was murdered by his generals, who wished to continue it. The Peloponnesian Campaign: Romans landed in early 431 at Pylos-and-Sphacteria, which they established as a base for future operations. From 431 to about 425 the Romans continued primarily naval operations, although raids into Messenia were frequent and lasted about two weeks on average. In 425 Rome won at Elis, and continued the campaign into Arcadia for the next seven years, which were dominated by battles of light-armed troops, the Byzantine peltasts against the Roman velites. In 418, the largest battle of the century took place at Mantineia, with a narrow victory by flanking over the Byzantine and Argive army. Shortly afterwards Argos was absorbed by Byzantium, which then launched a countercampaign into Laconia, which failed after the main Byzantine army lost at Trinasus in 415. That year also saw the beginning of the Byzantine expedition into Bruttium to try to seize Croton and Sybaris. After two years of siege the army was completely destroyed as it evacuated near Epidamnus (Dyrrhachium). After the Bruttian expedition the Romans consolidated their hold on the non-Argive Peloponnese, and then launched several thrusts into Corinthian lands between 411 and 406. All were defeated, most notably the Roman disaster at Sicyon in 410. After Corinth fell in 405, peace negotiations opened as the Roman fleet went through the Aegean, blockading harbors such as that of Chios, Mytilene, and Samos. Byzantium paid Rome 5000 silver talents, and Rome left, with the prestige of a victory. It is eminently possible that the Romans could have wiped out Eram's civilization completely; however, this is now impossible both due to Roman treaties and alliances with Byzantium, and the much stronger Byzantine Army.

Publius Tarquinius I Pulcher (404 - 371)
Publius Tarquin's first act was to eradicate the offending generals and have them imprisoned in a large pit in Rome, after which they were drawn and quartered for disloyalty to their King. To reaffirm Romano-Byzantine friendship, non-aggression treaties were signed. After this, Pulcher stood by as several civil wars wracked Clusium, the most notable being the War of the Clusian Succession (395 - 381). Gallic raids increased, and Arvernii control of the Po valley was also heightened, finally eradicating the Italian advantage following Patavium a century earlier.

Ancus Tarquinius Marcius I (371 - 338)
Ancus Marcius I continued the Roman policy of not getting involved in foreign wars that Pulcher had started, although now the Clusian League was now disintegrating and Arvernii raids through Helvetia and the Cisalpina into northern Italy were stepping up, adding to the destruction. His most notable achievement was the finish by his best engineer the Flaminian Way through Samnium and Clusian territory to Rome itself. "All roads lead to Rome."

Publius Tarquinius II Corvus (338 - 293)
Publius Tarquin II ("the Crow") was reportedly named such because of his thick, dark hair, but also because of his beaklike, protruding jaw. Evidently inbreeding was beginning to damage the Tarquinii bloodline. Corvus oversaw the absorption of the Clusian League by Rome after the utter destruction visited on Clusium itself by Brennus' first raid in 301. Several military victories were scored over the Gauls, but at the cost of a great loss of Roman manpower north of Campania. The defenses on the Romano-Clusian border were abandoned for a new line further north, but this one was not as easy to defend. Also during this period, Illyria began its first clashes with Germanic tribes, to escalate later.

Lucius Tarquinius VI Gallicus (293 - 281)
Tarquin VI continued to hold off the Gauls by sheer force of will. An excellent general, Gallicus instituted a brief strategy of defense-in-depth until the Gauls formed large field armies and penetrated the whole line, slowly. He continued his campaigns throughout his reign, as the Arvernii moved closer to Rome. The Clusian Campaign: Brennus mounts second Italian raid in 293. Gallicus meets him at Ariminum and defeats the small probing force, as more Gauls under Caninius infiltrate further into Etruria. Through 291 and 290 Gallicus continued to campaign north of a line from Ariminum-Faesulae-Pisae to allow the construction there of more fortifications. In 287 Brennus raises an army with a quarter of a million men from Allemagnia and Gaul itself, as well as many mercenaries, and marches through Etruria, penetrating the fortifications (called limes) and reaches the city of Volaterrae, where he is defeated by a ten-legion force, Rome's entire army, under Gallicus. The remaining men, about three-fifths of the original army after desertions (the most losses) and combat casualties, retreats to Florentia, where it is dealt another defeat in 284. The army falls apart and flees to Gaul and Germania, except for Brennus' hard core of 40,000 veterans, which marches south. Gallicus, with only two legions, defeats him again at Vetulonium in 282, but loses so many men that he is forced to retreat again, and the following year, after a brief siege, Brennus enters Rome with his cavalry and captures the city in its entirety except for the Capitoline Hill, defended by Marcus Manlius Capitolinus. However, Gallicus then attempts a sally and is defeated and killed. Brennus leaves Rome with his plunder and dies shortly afterward.

Ancus Tarquinius Marcius II (281 - 250)
After Gallicus' death, his son reclaimed Roman territory and rebuilt the army from the remnants on the Capitoline and in Campania. War with Gaul was contemplated, as many Kartyrian envoys asked the Romans to join a great alliance with Illyria, Allemagnia, Portugal, and Kartyria itself. Reforms were also needed, as the people, patricians and plebeians alike, began to distrust the current king. Even when Rome joined the Gallic war in the 260s, and increased the army (and even recovered some Roman things taken by Brennus two decades ago in Gergovia), the People still weren't happy. On his deathbed, Ancus Marcius created the Republic to appease the People, and left his continued plan for the war on Gaul, as well as plans for a possible Punic war, as the Carthaginians began a war on the Roman allies, Portugal and Kartyria.

Because das told me to put it here. More on IT II later.

 

[das]

With the recent ending of the Great Transpoenic War, it seems to still interest the participants, and perhaps some bystanders and lurkers. Regardless, I believe that this is the right place to discuss it.

Here is a short list of PoDs for it...

PoD number: 1
What happened: Romans tried to destroy the Carthaginian Imperial Fleet early into the war with a pathetic navy (quality-wise) and were consequently crushed at Messina.
What could have happend: Romans could have prepared better, training their fleet for the battle.
Short-term effects: Romans could have crushed the first part of the Carthaginian fleet before Hasdrubal's arrival.
Long-term effects: Although Romans couldn't have achieved absolute naval supremacy, this would have prevented the Rape of Rome and possibly would have allowed Kartyria to fare better in Iberia/Gaul, not having to send troops to Italy.

PoD number: 2
What happened: Roman coastal defense concentrated on defending the south, with a provision for moving to the north IF there were no attacks on southern Italy. But Carthaginians attacked in the south AND in the north, succesfully taking and looting Rome and thus greatly weakening Roman economy and morale.
What could have happend: Romans could have spread out their forces more evenly.
Short-term effects: In that case, both Carthaginian attacks might have been repulsed due to superior Roman position and officer cadre.
Long-term effects: Like in PoD 1, Kartyria would not have to send troops to Italy. Roman Republic will generally remain more stable. On the other hand, its population will be less united with Carthage still far away, and the blockade might wear down Rome further. An earlier peace is possible as well.

PoD number: 3
What happened: Dacians intended to launch an invasion of Sicily in cooperation with the Romans; due to communication errors, this was postponned, and eventually cancelled.
What could have happend: Dacians could have invaded Sicily.
Short-term effects: It would probably have failed taking Roman results into account, but it would not have been as disastrous for morale as the "victory" at Tangiers.
Long-term effects: Dacia might have fought on, causing lots of trouble for the Byzantines. Regardless, it would probably have cancelled the Dacian Fever, that really originated amongst the troops besieging Tangiers, and thus the Carthaginians might have tried to fight on to the total victory; Rome would've been better off, though Kartyria would probably not be saved by this.

PoD number: 4
What happened: After the rise to power of Eram Constantine IV, the Byzantines first signed peace and later an alliance with Carthage, withdrawing from Tripoli and invading South Italy.
What could have happend: Had the previous ruler held on to power, or had Eram been less pro-Carthaginian, Byzantine Empire might have fought on against Carthage.
Short-term effects: Byzantines would still have lost in Tripoli - their supplies were in bad condition, and Carthaginian Berbers were ready to fight for that land to the last drop of blood.
Long-term effects: The absence of a Byzantine invasion of Italy would generally have made Rome more stable and would have allowed them to commit more troops to Iberia (which, however, is NOT a good thing for Rome). Possibly, Romans might have supported Kartyria in Gaul, having dealt with the Etruscan rebels earlier (due to lack of Byzantine involvement) and not having Byzantines and Greeks to fight against in the south.

PoD number: 5
What happened: Kartyrian retreat from Gaul was a complete catastrophe; Vercingetorix, a Carthaginian mercenary, managed to consolidate power there and together with Hammo's forces he inflicted large casualties on the retreating Kartyrians.
What could have happend: Kartyrians could have tried to fight on in Gaul.
Short-term effects: Kartyrians would probably still have been beaten off at Yammyr - the odds against them were too great. However, they still could have maintained positions in Eastern and Northern Gaul.
Long-term effects: Kartyrians would probably have either retreated eventually to a more defensible position, but in a more orderly way (and perhaps not going as far as they did) - otherwise, they might have collapsed even earlier, due to overstretchment of resources. Another variant is trying to fight on in SOUTHERN Gaul, not going into the northern; then, Kartyrians could have actually held out, getting some sort of a compromise peace on Carthaginian terms, but themselves surviving as a nation (possibly limited by the Rhone and losing Corsica); otherwise, Kartyria might have held off Carthaginians but disintegrated nonetheless, delaying Carthaginian conquest.

 

[Sheep]

Intresting all intresting. Putting it this way its a small miracle that I even came as close to the total victory I had planned.

If Rome hadnt invaded Iberia they would of faced invasions of Italia. The Katyrians would of survived, I never really wanted to take over the Katyrian nation, but instead the attack on Iberia by Rome caused me to shift my thoughts.

What would of happened if Katyria never changed sides? Gaul would of remained property of Katyria, they would of gained Etrusca. In return Rome would of become a Carthagian province.

 

[das]

For that, we would need tossi to have gone NPC I'm afraid. Although it would have made sense - Kartyria would have concentrated on pacifying Gauls, whilst Carthage could have finished off Rome, whereas the Byzantines and the Dacians probably wouldn't have done anything neither. Needless to say, the Transpoenic and Mediterranean regions would have been much better off in that case. However, I suspect that eventually, Kartyria would still have had to fight with Carthage (historical rivalry, overlapping interests) - and if Eram IV's coup in Byzantium would still have happened, Kartyria would have been doomed, without allies or anything like that. So, what tossi did was quite reasonable in a way, even if its execution did lead to an early death of Kartyria.

 

[tossi]

Yeah. I played Kartyria how it fitted in my imagination of them. My Kartyrians just couldn't let an ally which helped us well in the Gaulish war alone. Neither could they accept a surrender. They are too proud my little Kartyrians...

I just talked to Dachspmg over pm and he told me that it was the senate who forbid him to have peace with carthage. So what if Rome would NOT have become a republic?

I think they would have been weaker, but this might have prevented the war. Maybe later, when Rome would have buid a proper navy, the war could have been started to gain the sicily trade center and the outcome might have been very different with a pacified gaul and a stronger navy of both Kartyria and Rome.

 

[silver 2039]

That is why you should not have a Repebulic! You should have an Imperial Repebuilic!!

 

[das]

Yeah. I played Kartyria how it fitted in my imagination of them. My Kartyrians just couldn't let an ally which helped us well in the Gaulish war alone. Neither could they accept a surrender. They are too proud my little Kartyrians...

Well, technically this was a sound strategical move as well - otherwise, Kartyria would have effectively been surrounded.

I just talked to Dachspmg over pm and he told me that it was the senate who forbid him to have peace with carthage.

Actually, the Senate forbid it before you signed peace, and the Consuls didn't ask it if the stance is changed. It could possibly be explained as news coming in too late. Now, if they came in on time...

So what if Rome would NOT have become a republic?

Technically at that time it was the only way to go apart from a civil war, and a one the king would have lost. The best way to prevent a Roman Republic is to have a quick and victorious Gaelic War instead of a slugfest. Otherwise, we could perhaps get a "Senatorial Monarchy" - but in that case, the problem of coordination between the ruler(s) and the Senate would still have existed.

 

[Dachs]

@PoD #1: I tried to train, but it was overnullified (went negative in spite of an eco to raise it) by the sheer number of ships made that turn. The real problem was that the strategy I had in mind would not have worked in the wide (comparably to the plan) Strait of Messina. Mainly a strategic error on my part, but that part of the plan would never have worked without Kartyrian assistance, which didn't come as requested.

@PoD #2: If I'd done that, I'd have divided my troops too much, and I didn't want to weaken both. You can't be strong everywhere. I also put too much stock in guerrilla warfare, which I tried to utilize with citizen velites and alae, but they probably wouldn't have slowed the Punic steamroller down much. I figured a counteroffensive would probably have smashed any Punic northern attack, anyway, and focused my main effort on eliminating their cavalry (which das said was a strong arm of their troops) by depriving the horse of food with the aforementioned velites, and on an expected attack in Bruttium. This PoD is, in my view, unrealistic, although it would have been nice.

I still think that, despite those errors, if Sheep hadn't found out about the Isra attack near Arretium and hadn't been ready for the Kartyrian blow, we could have won. In my opinion, that's a real PoD. Another possible is erez not attacking Sheep in IT I (which I assumed happened).

 

[Capulet]

What if Capulet never wrote Sheep's orders?

 

[alex994]

What if Capulet never wrote Sheep's orders?

Or advised him

 

[Capulet]

Or advised him

"tossi will betray you."

I want to reveal something huge and crucial that really affected my plans in the later part of the NES. It was the reason I convinced Sheep to attack Portugal and Katyria... but since I think I'll be re-joining that NES again, possibly as Luca, I don't think I should give away all of my secrets yet.

And someone out there knows exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[das]

You plan to rejoin as Luca? Interesting because...

IMHO Isra was just plain unlikely. Such things just don't work, flawlessly anyway.

 

[silver 2039]

Yes intreasting.....

 

[North King]

I think the often discussed (well, in Kalingan royal and strategic circles)... Um... I'm not going to tell you, since I still intend to do it at some point. In any case, it was a nice PoD.

 

[Dachs]

IMHO Isra was just plain unlikely. Such things just don't work, flawlessly anyway.

I guess your opinion does matter the most, as the mod.

 

[das]

Oh, and about your navy - maybe if you had trained it better then you did in OTL? I mean, I know you tried to train it, but had you say sacrificed ten ships... well, you might have gotten less of a disaster, IMHO.

Btw, I'm trying to write a history of IT II. Not sure if I'll finish today...