It's About to Get Hot at the Border

[Broken_Erika]

Yeah, but you can't count on that though. Some of these militia types have been going more and more off the deep end for a while now and some of them might have hit the point where launching raids into Mexico sounds like a good idea.

Avenge Colombus!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Columbus_(1916)

 

[Commodore]

Trump is deploying 5000 soldiers to the border to stop the caravan.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/10/29/migrant-caravan-troops-border/1805864002/

That is a bit of a misleading statement according to the article. The stated mission of those troops is not to stop the caravan, but rather to help cut down on the number of illegal entries and make sure everyone in the caravan presents themselves at a legal port of entry or border crossing.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Troops are so we don't have a real-life Born in East LA scene.

 

[Gori the Grey]

They do not need to give wall to wall coverage of every inane thing he puts out there, much less the veritable mountain of horsepoop and lies he peddles.

They do, though. When the President of the United States is using his bully pulpit to engage in a campaign of active disinformation, they need to report that (as newsworthy in its own right) and attempt as far as possible (as their chief charge) to correct it with accurate information.

 

[Commodore]

Troops are so we don't have a real-life Born in East LA scene.

That's a movie I haven't seen in a long time.

 

[HoloDoc]

Asylum is the stated goal of the group. That doesn't mean every single member of said group is being honest about it. Asylum was the stated goal of the caravan from last year, but we see how that turned out:

401 properly requested asylum at a port of entry
122 got caught trying to sneak across the border illegally

Of the 401 who requested asylum, 374 of them passed the first 'fear' test (93%). But, on average (not just people from the caravan), the average acceptance of asylum applications after passing the fear test is 22%. So there is either a very low standard to passing the fear test, or high standard to getting formal asylum after that, or a combination of both.

After 9 months, 85% of those that passed the 'fear' test have not yet filed for formal asylum. Where are they? Why have they not filed? Did they know they needed to take this next step and passing the 'fear' test is not the final step? Or did they join the caravan to bypass the border and not have to rely on smugglers?
Of those whose cases have been finalized, 3 were accepted and 1 was rejected.

It couldn't possibly be fear that the orange hobgoblin in th White House who is actively locking up young migrant children in rape camps might send them back regardless of how many tests they pass. Nah, they just want to take your jobs.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I also do not give the media a pass because while they sometimes push back against his lies more often they just report what he says without qualifier.

It was one of those dialogue balloons as in comic strips and just had the word "Lie" in it. By the end all four or five of the sentences in the tweet had such a balloon next to it.

Reading these two posts I couldn't help but think of this scene:

Made me laugh hysterically... especially given what he ultimately ends up writing on the photo.
SPOLIER ALERT:

Spoiler :

 

[Sommerswerd]

Asylum is the stated goal of the group. That doesn't mean every single member of said group is being honest about it. Asylum was the stated goal of the caravan from last year, but we see how that turned out:

401 properly requested asylum at a port of entry
122 got caught trying to sneak across the border illegally

Of the 401 who requested asylum, 374 of them passed the first 'fear' test (93%). But, on average (not just people from the caravan), the average acceptance of asylum applications after passing the fear test is 22%. So there is either a very low standard to passing the fear test, or high standard to getting formal asylum after that, or a combination of both.

After 9 months, 85% of those that passed the 'fear' test have not yet filed for formal asylum. Where are they? Why have they not filed? Did they know they needed to take this next step and passing the 'fear' test is not the final step? Or did they join the caravan to bypass the border and not have to rely on smugglers?
Of those whose cases have been finalized, 3 were accepted and 1 was rejected.

OK but why is there a formal petition for asylum, followed by a "fear test" followed by a "formal" petition for asylum, followed by whatever other bureaucratic horse manure obstacles? Why are they not simply processed in one step/process? Setting up some web of obstacles for poor folks whose resources and/or education level may be too low to complete any such test at all, let alone speak/read English... then cursing them as not being genuine in their asylum claims is just... whatevs.

What is it that people don't "believe" here? That they genuinely want to come live/work in the US and that they genuinely are fleeing the poor conditions/circumstances of their origin country? What is the "trick" here? "Hahaha silly Americans... we fooled you! We don't really want to live and work in America, we just want to... live... and... work... there..."

 

[hobbsyoyo]

And ultimately whether or not these people have legitimate asylum hearings and the outcome of those proceedings (regardless of whether they are legitimate or kangaroo courts) is determined by Trumpists.

Most people will be rejected for asylum because that is the system he controls and is further building out.

 

[Sommerswerd]

It's About to Get Hot at the Border

Point of Order... It's already quite hot at the border. It is in the desert afterall

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The craziest thing is that these border walls create the situation they purport to solve. Before we effectively closed the border, migration into the US from Mexico and Central/South America was dominated by circular migration. Young people would come here to work a few seasons, make cash and then go home to be with their families. They usually only did this a few times before moving on to other endeavors. Because the cost to entry was so low people were free to come here and work and then leave.

Once the border was clamped down on the price to entry shot through the roof. Every crossing could end up putting you in jail so people stopped doing it for temporary work. Instead they crossed and stayed because we didn't give them any other viable option. Once that began, families began setting up root in a way that didn't happen before which in turn attracted more permanent migration.

Here's a good, 37 minute podcast on the growth of the modern border patrol and the consequences of our border policy.

 

[HoloDoc]

OK but why is there a formal petition for asylum, followed by a "fear test" followed by a "formal" petition for asylum, followed by whatever other bureaucratic horse manure obstacles? Why are they not simply processed in one step/process? Setting up some web of obstacles for poor folks whose resources and/or education level may be too low to complete any such test at all, let alone speak/read English... then cursing them as not being genuine in their asylum claims is just... whatevs.

What is it that people don't "believe" here? That they genuinely want to come live/work in the US and that they genuinely are fleeing the poor conditions/circumstances of their origin country? What is the "trick" here? "Hahaha silly Americans... we fooled you! We don't really want to live and work in America, we just want to... live... and... work... there..."

Because making asylum as difficult as possible to seek creates a permanent underclass of migrant workers, cheap labour that lacks a base of power from which to challenge their exploitation. The legal process is designed to force people to give up and go underground, preventing them from ever rising above the lower working class. Once they're illegal, they obey or get sent back.

In order to get the general public to back this obviously in humane treatment, you ratchet up the racism and politics of envy. The best example is, again, John Howard in Australia, who described asylum seekers as "queue jumpers." Everyone hates that bastard that cuts the line; even non-racists will get worked up at that, which makes it more acceptable for the racists to speak up as well. Then you slowly normalise the arguments, until they're all terrorists who are going to simultaneously take your jobs and soak up all the welfare, vote for the Democracts en masse, and George Soros is behind it. Howard was scum, but he was a smart politician, and the right in the rest of the world is actively emulating him.

 

[Bamspeedy]

OK but why is there a formal petition for asylum, followed by a "fear test" followed by a "formal" petition for asylum, followed by whatever other bureaucratic horse manure obstacles? Why are they not simply processed in one step/process? Setting up some web of obstacles for poor folks whose resources and/or education level may be too low to complete any such test at all, let alone speak/read English... then cursing them as not being genuine in their asylum claims is just... whatevs.

What is it that people don't "believe" here? That they genuinely want to come live/work in the US and that they genuinely are fleeing the poor conditions/circumstances of their origin country? What is the "trick" here? "Hahaha silly Americans... we fooled you! We don't really want to live and work in America, we just want to... live... and... work... there..."

Because a border agent can do all the necessary background checks and research done in a manner of minutes/hours to make a proper decision?
The backlog of asylum requests makes this process take months/years, would you like them to sit in a detention center during this wait?

As I figure the process is:
1. Formal request for asylum- Immigrant basically states "Hey, I want asylum". Ok, fill out this paperwork.
2. 'Fear test'. Border agent looks over the paperwork and decides if their argument has some merit.

An asylum seeker must prove that he or she has a well-founded fear of persecution based on one or more of five grounds:

• Race.
• Religion.
• Nationality.
• Membership in a particular social group (Most LGBTQ individuals who apply for asylum qualify under this category)
• Political opinion.

Note that "improving my economic situation" is not on that list. For those individuals there are other immigration routes to take, asylum doesn't qualify. Not hard to pass this test since the last caravan had a 93% success rate.

If they pass the fear test, they are temporarily allowed into the country and have one year to apply for formal asylum. I would be surprised if they don't get some sort of paperwork that shows their current status (papers that shows they were allowed into the country as an asylum seeker, and have an expiration date of one year).

3. File for formal asylum. Make their residency permanent instead of temporary. Most of the last caravan did not even file this last bit of paperwork, why?
Because it's too much of a burden? Do they know they need to do this? (in which case maybe it should be made more clear/explained more clearly in the future) Or because they already got what they wanted (crossed the border)?

If they want to be 'legal' then do it all legally, not half-baked.

 

[El_Machinae]

Part of the reason for the extra paperwork is that we have different obligations towards asylum seekers than we do for people who merely want to work. That the system is overwhelmed is actually a real problem, and it's a problem with many underlying causes.

I don't know the statistics of those who qualify for refugee-support programs and then 'disappear' into the country. Ostensibly, they're working or whatever, but that's also a statistic I don't know.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Part of the reason for the extra paperwork is that we have different obligations towards asylum seekers than we do for people who merely want to work. That the system is overwhelmed is actually a real problem, and it's a problem with many underlying causes.

I don't know the statistics of those who qualify for refugee-support programs and then 'disappear' into the country. Ostensibly, they're working or whatever, but that's also a statistic I don't know.

It's not even necessarily 'extra' paperwork. Other forms of immigration have long delays for background checks and stuff before they can even enter the country. Just showing up at the border like this caravan skips this step, making the next batch of paperwork necessary.

Heard the troops are not going to be doing border patrol, but building tents....lets hope it's for processing 5000 applications in a few days and not months.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Because a border agent can do all the necessary background checks and research done in a manner of minutes/hours to make a proper decision?
The backlog of asylum requests makes this process take months/years, would you like them to sit in a detention center during this wait?

The question is not whether I want them to sit in a detention center. The question is whether you (the royal you, ie caravan disapprove'rs) want them to sit in a detention center. If the answer is "no" then what the heck are you complaining about?? Also:

would you like them to sit in a detention center Ellis Island-like standing immigration processing facilities during this wait?

FTFY... and... Yes. If the alternative is being separated from their children and threatened by armed paramilitary vigilantes.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Note that "improving my economic situation" is not on that list.

Irrelevant, since as you point out, over 90% pass the "fear test" anyway... its a pointless additional bureaucratic obstacle for its own sake that gives Border agents arbitrary DMV like power to exert according to their whims.

If they pass the fear test, they are temporarily allowed into the country and have one year to apply for formal asylum.

But that's where the stupidity lies... Why the additional step? Why not just take their "formal" application right then and there? Not enough time/resources? Oh but then there's enough time and resources to round them up and conduct deportation proceedings later? No... but its a lot more fun terrorizing helpless foreigners than it is sitting there helping them fill out their applications. Talking a poor person through their application? Booo-riiing... Chasing unarmed people around with guns and screaming orders at them? :Woohoo! Sign me up!

You let them go with or without a proper explanation of this "formal application" process that they may or may not understand (they don't) and then curse them when they don't follow through with it... "Complete the formal application"... between working multiple jobs and struggling to survive and raise families on below-minimum wage... they're supposed to fill out a "formal application" on their own? When? How? Hire a lawyer to advise them? With what funds? The expectation is preposterous and designed to be impossible to meet. It's a sham. Their application should be entered upon entry.

 

[Berzerker]

big nothingburger - caravan will apply for asylum at crossing points, some will sneak in, nothing new...

American accidentally crosses into Mexico and is shot and killed - yay
American shoots foreign trespasser - boo

 

[El_Machinae]

I've no experience with the American asylum process. How much of the requisite paperwork and evidence-collecting is *best* done while being contained at a facility?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

big nothingburger - caravan will apply for asylum at crossing points, some will sneak in, nothing new...

American accidentally crosses into Mexico and is shot and killed - yay
American shoots foreign trespasser - boo

You left out American shoots American trespassing militia member - yay