I've Reached a Plateau - Any Pointers?

Esio Trot

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
6
Location
Bedfordshire, England
I've been lurking for months, and time before as a guest.

Thanks to members here I've learnt so much - with the biggest eye opener shadowing Orion's run though at Noble. This is the level I play all the time now, and can now win 3 in 10 games, maybe even 4. I still feel a novice though.

Until this year I'd mostly played Civ avoiding war as much as possible. I've now learned to become more of a warmonger - but it's been hard to break years of habitual playing. Also, an early cardinal sin was trying to be friends with all - again, I've now learned to pick my friends carefully.

I have this game that I have reloaded from 1500 AD quite a few times. I've uploaded two screenshots plus the save.

At the bottom is Beshbalik which was mine via an early rush and was lost some time ago. Next to it is Old Sarai which is still mine but that I've lost on every game before 1560 even when loading it up with every unit available. In the last game I gave it to Victoria rather than have it seized again.

May I ask you for suggestions/criticisms of my game? Is Old Sarai worth keeping, and if so how? Both Genghis and Shaka are ready to DoW me.
 

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What i notice from your screenshots is that you have done a really bad job at building tile improvements. Unless you're at war and an enemy has pillaged all your improvements, then it seems like you just haven't built enough. All of your cities could be larger, your tech rate could be much faster, and you could produce many more buildings and units if you had more tile improvements. In particular, I don't see any towns. If you build towns on your flood plain and grasslands, then at Noble you can tech fast enough that you'll be able to clobber any opposition due to technological superiority, even if you have bad warmongering skills.

You should have AT LEAST as many workers as you have cities.
 
1, Darius. Caesar. Napoleon: The triumverate.

2. Early game is somewhat like this: ignore faith. Some one else will develop it, and you will have to switch to it to pacify them, as they will spam it all over your continent. Develop masonry. Use masonry to build the great wall. This will give you great spies, which can be used to steal all teh tech (pick the most science oriented computer faction nearby - they will usually turn into a midgame superpower.) Spy on them exclusively (just put the setting to 99).

3. The wall is up. The holy anti barbarian shield is complete - never again will you have to worry about your cities getting raided by barbarian junk. Now get bronzeworking (hopefully you developed it as tech 3 so you could cut down trees to choprush the wall.) Ah. this is a good time to learn about choprushing, young one - when you cut down trees,you get 60 production towards whatever you are building - increase by 100 % for a wonder if you have the right resource. This is generally a good way to build 1-2 wonders fast in your starting city. The downside is this removes all the local trees (start with the ones on green squares, those will later become cottages.) If you have alot of hills nearby that 's ok, but i'd advise being careful removing trees on plains. Those can much later be lumber camps and give you health points for really large cities. However, if I really need something , I remove trees without compunction. Things on the high priority list would be wonders, and settlers, or troops for that first initial push.

4. Settle nearby. Take over barbarian cities. Use slavery to spam graneries. Have 1 city with high population spam settlers. Get ironworking . Get alphabet, so you can trade tech with the computer (consider pushing to alphabet to trade it for ironworking, via pottery, one of the most useful advances in the game.) You need to at least find copper for axemen (start building these in bulk, but you will need other troops. ) For most civilizations, a mix of axe/swordsmen as mainline troops is best - immortals are fun for the persians, but mostly chariots are useless for everyone else. I swear by an early game axemen/swordsmen/immortal build with some catapults and horse archers thrown in as soon as I can steal or trade for the tech. Put cottages as many places as you can (HOPEFULLY you got tons of river valley/floodplains.)

5. Build lots of swordsmen + axemen and take out a neighbour. Catapults are a good idea too to take down fortifications, and horse archers are also on the "useful" list, as well as elephants (rarely). This can go horribly wrong if you overuse slavery, and don't have enough cities. However, it usually works, and you are set up with a semi decent empire. Trade with people. A great spy will materialize from the great wall. Dump it into the highest tech neigbour. Steal everything they have, including tech you will need to survive and develop. You developed alphabet so you could trade, right ? Tech to currency and code of laws. I always play with someone with organized, - it makes costs sane later in the game. Courthouses are very useful , as they make large empires a reality.

6. Some time in the middle ages, things will stagnate. You are hopefully spamming great spies by this point , and have removed one neighbour. Your duty is to get out of the middle ages as soon as possible. Steal or develop important stuff ( civil service, paper, machinery.) Eventually you will find yourself able to research education, and then liberalism , hopefully before anyone else does. This takes you to a free nationalism (you did steal philosophy right?). All this theft requires every great person to be a great spy, which can be done simply with a city, with a courthouse, a wonder or two (great wall + something else), and the national epic.

7. You will get to the renaissance. You hopefully developed liberalism first, catapulting you to nationalism (YAY< DRAFT!!). This is the world's silliest way to raise troops for relatively cheap. By this point, I make obtaining or stealing astronomy a priority. You can usually trade for the precursors - try and get the 'round the world' bonus by sending 2 ships in opposite directions. The real priority though is developing 10-12 cities with as many cottages and research huts as you can, so you can research your way through the renaissance at a half decent rate. Priorities include guilds (knights -yaay), and then banking/economics. I've never failed to use the great person at this point to generate a golden age.. this lets you switch to the exciting new governments without shutting down your economy. You probably got through the middle ages by using monarchy/vasslage/slavery(serfdom)/decentrilaization/organized religion or theocracy. Now it's time for something new and exciting (renaissance :) ! _ try republic/nationhood/serfdom(slavery for warfare)/freemarket/(organized religion for building/theocracy for warfare/free religion for research.)

8. The game begins to get exciting . Modern napoleonic wars begin to become a reality. Get rifling. begin taking over the world. Try and make way to assembly line. In event of global war, slavery makes deploying new uber units a reality fast. Other than that, get rid of it (use something more infrastructure), and use the draft to stay alive, and conquor. Trade everything with everyone (cash off every computer AI not at war with you, to the max they will give you, for your resources, and ANY resources that give you unhappiness (this helps you absorb the happiness burn from using draft/slavery. I tend to try and have both running in my cities, as they bleed off in separate counters - though slavery trashes population majorly and I'm not fond of using it overly much late game.) I also trade for all health resources. Astronomy lets you set up modern era trade networks, which drastically changes the game - I try and have all mods I can at all times, just in case i get poisoned water or something. AI's will trade goods at 1 to 1 - trade off your 'spare' gold or wine or whatever for stuff halfway around the world you don't have. Build harbours and customs houses in all ports to reap the benefits.

9. I would advise developing communism if you can ( I 'm not really a fan of corporations - one game MAYBE one of these years I'll use sid's sushi...) - This game I'm playing with Darius on Immortal - Freemarket is going to be my government for a while. The "napoleonic" continental wars are heating up, and victory depends on destroying Justinian before he gets modern technology. He's attacked me before ( I had to reload - uck ), and thankfully I managed to fend him off with drafting, gunpowder, and a network of walls ( I LOVE these now - they stop junk units.) Cataphractoi are very nasty in the hands of a computer AI who can mass deploy them - I never use them as Justinian lacks organized, and that makes him very less impressive in player hand (used to playing in high modes with massive computer bonuses.)

10. Thoughs - pentagon? Assembly line is pretty fun. More cottages than god.

11. Somehow, somewhere, I got away with 10 or so workers. They threw out critical stuff, missed roads and moved on. I captured a bunch off the Russians.

12. I hate Pretorians. They die too fast. Immortals are cheaper, and you tend to loose units at 2/1 in early wars. Immortals are so very much more useful. Die archers, die !
 
1, Darius. Caesar. Napoleon: The triumverate.
12. I hate Pretorians. They die too fast. Immortals are cheaper, and you tend to loose units at 2/1 in early wars. Immortals are so very much more useful. Die archers, die !

What? Swordsmen are an excellent city attack unit and Praets are even better. There's a reason they're considered one of the game's top units.. esp with the Imperialistic trait feeding Great Generals. CR III Praets are ridiculous for their time period.
 
12. I hate Pretorians. They die too fast. Immortals are cheaper, and you tend to loose units at 2/1 in early wars. Immortals are so very much more useful. Die archers, die !

You must be kidding :eek: Best unit in the game by far.

CRI,II & III are the promotions, you may loose a few early on but once they start taking cities and getting those CRII & III promotions, best unit for taking cities.

I use them all the way to gunpowder, maybe sprinkle a few Knights in to the mix. After longbows show up you need cats / trebs to soften up the defenders first.

Immortals are great very early on and more effective against axes + extremely fast too, but they cant be efective once stronger units like swords / war elephants etc start showing up.
 
Caesar (either one really) is a warmonger. Bury that in your brain and label permanently. If you play Rome, your easiest road to success is usually domination or conquest.

Other warmongers are useful tools. Bribe them to distract your other neighbors while you go to war. Remember, when other civs are fighting each other, they don't usually want to fight you. A good quote I heard somewhere on this board is that whenever you war, it is always best to make it a World War. (Sorry I don't know who to attribute that to.)

As others have said, your main problem however, is your lack of workers and improved tiles. There really is no reason why your capital should not be completely surrounded by improvements by 1500 and 15+ in size unless it got sacked at some point. I usually begin with a worker as my first build for almost every city and often build more, meaning I usually have more workers than I do cities, but always have at least as many workers as cities as a bare minimum (and I heartily recommend more unless you are going for cultural victory). Workers, workers, workers. Most important unit in the game.

So what improvements do you build? Depends on the city. Specialize your cities. Many players like to have an "armory" or a city that can pop out one of your most advanced units every turn. National Epic and Iron Works are great National Wonders for getting this accomplished, as are workshops and obviously mines. Also make sure to build a Military Academy there (GG special building) as soon as you get Military Science. Cities with lots of grassland and flood plains should get cottages ASAP. The sooner you plant a cottage, the sooner it can become a town, which is going to be your primary source of income/beakers in the mid game onward.

I don't see a lot of praetorian units. You should have huge stacks, supported with trebs/catapults for taking enemy cities. Although in Noble I am usually to gunpowder by 1500, praetorians can remain viable even then. Someone mentioned city raider promotions for them. I wholeheartedly agree. That is what they are for anyway! Use archers to defend (unless HC or GK is your neighbor; then use spearmen) your cities, but the bulk of your military should be an offensive force of praetorians.

I typically don't worry about religion unless I am a spiritual leader (in which case I like to switch religions to make fast friends) and/or start with mysticism. Just adopt whatever religions your neighbors spread to you, then conquer their holy cities later. That's actually how it worked out most of the time in real history incidentally.
 
Thanks guys for taking the time to look at my attempts so far.

I've taken on board your comments and see that there is still much to be learnt. I haven't bothered that much with Pret's, but I see now that they are cheap and can be churned out at a fair rate.

Looking again at my game though, I did notice that somehow (sometime in the past by mistake methinks) that I had "avoid growth" button pushed on my capital city.

I'm playing on, and got to 1580. I've Made peace with Genghis and Shaka is about to lose his third city - meaning he has no cities on this continent other than past the thin strip to the North West.
 
There tends to be so many self-proclaimed deity experts from the GENERAL side of the forums, who will tell you never ending stories on how great Romans are, and how broken they are.

Let me share with you some of my own NEWBIE advice. Romans are OK, but not for the reasons people are telling you. Also... please note that Romans are the most over-rated leaders in the whole game.

But you don't have to take my world for it... there's plenty of self-proclaimed-pros who will tell you other wise. Like "just axe-rush the deity AI's and you win" LOL. A lot of these guys are the same ones who told me years ago that Ramesses is un-playable once you hit monarch because industrious trait dies there. Uh-huh....

Please keep in mind when playing a normal deity game, as soon as you get your pratts online, the AI is already coming at you with Maces. You can't even compare deity to other levels. But this is what most people think they can do. And is part of the reason why so many people think they are experts on levels that they couldn't even win if their life depended on it.
 
Come now obs, I'm no deity player but even I have offed two civs using prats on deity before. On normal speed. If you enable the marathon super military boost i'm sure its even stronger.

But this guys problems are pronounced enough to overcome any good leader or trait. Working so many unimproved tiles that late in the game is a bad sign...even crappy tile improvement choices beat out growing onto...2f grass tiles.
 
There tends to be so many self-proclaimed deity experts from the GENERAL side of the forums, who will tell you never ending stories on how great Romans are, and how broken they are.

Let me share with you some of my own NEWBIE advice. Romans are OK, but not for the reasons people are telling you. Also... please note that Romans are the most over-rated leaders in the whole game.

But you don't have to take my world for it... there's plenty of self-proclaimed-pros who will tell you other wise. Like "just axe-rush the deity AI's and you win" LOL. A lot of these guys are the same ones who told me years ago that Ramesses is un-playable once you hit monarch because industrious trait dies there. Uh-huh....

Please keep in mind when playing a normal deity game, as soon as you get your pratts online, the AI is already coming at you with Maces. You can't even compare deity to other levels. But this is what most people think they can do. And is part of the reason why so many people think they are experts on levels that they couldn't even win if their life depended on it.

Haha yeah. Diety is ridiculous -- the only way I've ever won is to use Inca and rush Great Wall and steal techs like a madman, but also get lucky enough to start by Gold/Gems/Silver and an extremely close and weak AI neighbor (like Lizzy or Willem) to conquer at the same time.
 
There tends to be so many self-proclaimed deity experts from the GENERAL side of the forums, who will tell you never ending stories on how great Romans are, and how broken they are.

Let me share with you some of my own NEWBIE advice. Romans are OK, but not for the reasons people are telling you. Also... please note that Romans are the most over-rated leaders in the whole game.

But you don't have to take my world for it... there's plenty of self-proclaimed-pros who will tell you other wise. Like "just axe-rush the deity AI's and you win" LOL. A lot of these guys are the same ones who told me years ago that Ramesses is un-playable once you hit monarch because industrious trait dies there. Uh-huh....

Please keep in mind when playing a normal deity game, as soon as you get your pratts online, the AI is already coming at you with Maces. You can't even compare deity to other levels. But this is what most people think they can do. And is part of the reason why so many people think they are experts on levels that they couldn't even win if their life depended on it.

I love your De Gaulle tale =)

This isn't Deity, is it? I can't load the save.. assumed it was noble or prince. He might as well have some fun with Praets while he can, if he's playing Romans..

Edit: Says in the original post it's noble.
 
Would you believe I am still playing the same game - I only get a few hours a week to play :(

Well, thanks to some excellent tips from you guys I am top dog. Trouble is I realised about 20 moves ago that I was certain to lose a to a cultural victory by Huayna.

I reckon he's got the culture slider at max as he's researching Military Science and this is going to take another 20 odd turns - so his science slider must be at minimum.

Looks like I've got no choice but DoW him once I've got my destroyers and transports in position. I've targeted his capital city as this is already at legendary status and I can unload just one square away NW of the city. I've amassed 13 x Artillery, 4 x Cannon, 12 x Infantry, 7 x cavalry, 3 x paratroopers. He's got a couple of tanks, and I can't get Anti-tank in place soon enough. I think my forces are sufficient to take out the city, then I'll have to raze it otherwise it'll no doubt flip back.

A complication is that Genghis is his vassel, so I'll be at war with both. To spread the load I've tried to get Elizabeth to DoW but failed.
 

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Like others have mentionned build more workers. And try to develop a plan based on your traits, the map, and the neighbouring AI's.

Also, next time please turn on the resource bubble (Ctrl-R) for your screenshots. It will help in examining your city placements.
 
Late stage of the game consumes way too much time. Try to start more games by using the new skills you've acquired through the thread. Or maybe replay from the start, not in the middle. You'll see how drastically one improvement can change your position over the turns.
 
Holy....., I just checked Rome and it has 2 improved tiles and a workboat. This is where your first improvement really should come from. Your capital should be the city that should have the most improvements since you have the longest time to work on that. You did well in this game with such a backwards capital to be honest. As all the others have mentioned, get more workers. You desperately need them.

About Huayna: Why would you need transports and destroyers when he is on your land. Just get everything in a big Stack of Doom (SoD) and crush his land.
 
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