Japan

[Legen]

Perheaphs it's enough, I forgot how different the production costs were back then. But pre-medieval game should still be quite lackluster, assuming the formula using the former level. Think it would be too much to have a minimum yield value of 2 or 3, so the first level up isn't void? That way, the UA has some use for Ancient era.

 

[Gazebo]

Hmm, maybe we need to tweak the UA to give yields based on level, but under a different condition? That could solve the problem of Japan abusing the build+disband thing.

My suggestions are:

"Gain and when your units win a battle, based on their current level."
"Gain and when a unit kills an enemy unit, based on your unit's current level."

No reward for disbanding units, but still rewarding for keeping highly leveled units alive and active. Experimenting some formulas now.

It is terribly difficult to distinguish between experience earned via combat and experience earned via construction. Also the AI would be sad.

G

 

[randomnub]

I think abusing build+disband is like editing the UA and give it a 100 multiplier. Just don't do it if you want to have a nice game.

Sure it's nice for a game/mod to be exploits free but if you really want to cheat there're less convoluted ways to do it. Like, getting a free Giant Death Robot once entering modern era, named Gundam.

 

[kawyua]

Instead of a bonus from killing units or leveling up, I wouldn't mind if it is a passive thing.

Is it possible to give a promotion that grants bonus science and culture per turn based on the unit level?

I think this is a decent work around for the abuse with scout based units. Even though getting a bunch of scouts and leveling them can work, it wouldn't give too much returns from this mechanic. Its also a lot less work for the player and the ai to deal with. Less gimmicky stuff with promotions is good, probably.
Having a high promotion standing army takes a lot of work and I think its merit enough for some good bonuses per turn.

Maybe 1 science and culture per turn for each level above 1? Hmmm that might be too much. It could also trigger from something like getting a technology or getting a policy. That might be thematic

Hopefully, it'll be the consistent boost that Japan wants early in the game.

 

[Legen]

Is the scout line staying as it is? I thought people were already asking for changes.

Well, passive yields seems similar to Arabia's UA, just tied to units instead of Historic Events. May be interesting if the UA proves too annoying to adjust, but I don't see need for it yet. Overall, no clear opinion of that.

I think the boost Japan needs for the early game is mostly some yields on the first levels, including the first leveling, which currently offers 0 yields. Just a minimum of 2 or 3 would already be a nice help in Ancient Era. The iPassYield increase to 5 may be enough for mid-late game scaling, I'll wait it to test.

I still want to see something stronger for the SS victory path that was mentioned before, in the May 22 patch thread, but let's see how the new UA scaling will do.

 

[kawyua]

mmm yeah, I don't have any problems with the new scaling. Its all yields in the end, but I guess tedium was getting to me. I'm not sure how the ai is handling this though

I thought something a bit more passive would be nice, but I haven't really thought it through.

I still haven't had a good run through with japan either. I haven't taken the time to understand how everything works, but I'll have a go after this change.

 

[Legen]

The upcoming changes bring back some of the concerns I had about Japan's anti-synergies.

First is that the new UA is trying to push Japan for early warfare in order to gain science and culture, despite the civ lacking early warfare advantages. This is already troubling when facing civs with a strong early UU, and with Authority receiving some nerfs, I expect Japan to have more troubles making use of the UA prior to medieval.

Increasing iPassYield from 4 to 5 is a 25% increase on yields from the UA, which is nice for late game, but not going to impact much in ancient-classical, especially if the nerfs to Authority and policy costs end slowing early warfare.

Further penalties to puppets means the Dojo is weaker overall. Japan's UA encourages puppeting simply because it doesn't scale with the number of cities and, therefore, Dojo will have to deal with the increased penalty on its bonus yields. I don't know if this will offset the increase in iPassYield, but it's certain that it's more impactful on Japan than on civs with UBs focused on other yields, like gold or production.

If the upcoming changes mentioned stay as they are now, I think Japan is better having some additional adjustments, if just to not be affected too much. A suggestion that I hope the AI won't have trouble using:

- UA: Units also start with +10 XP. Helps in early wars, speeds up the UA yields and, this way, the 0 yields on the first promotion is at least justified. Maybe increase the barbarian xp cap by 10 for Japan as well.

I don't know of a way to deal with the lower yeilds of the Dojo on puppets, the UB is already strong as it is on non-puppet cities, and the yields are aligned with the civ's current focus.

 

[Gazebo]

The upcoming changes bring back some of the concerns I had about Japan's anti-synergies.

First is that the new UA is trying to push Japan for early warfare in order to gain science and culture, despite the civ lacking early warfare advantages. This is already troubling when facing civs with a strong early UU, and with Authority receiving some nerfs, I expect Japan to have more troubles making use of the UA prior to medieval.

Increasing iPassYield from 4 to 5 is a 25% increase on yields from the UA, which is nice for late game, but not going to impact much in ancient-classical, especially if the nerfs to Authority and policy costs end slowing early warfare.

Further penalties to puppets means the Dojo is weaker overall. Japan's UA encourages puppeting simply because it doesn't scale with the number of cities and, therefore, Dojo will have to deal with the increased penalty on its bonus yields. I don't know if this will offset the increase in iPassYield, but it's certain that it's more impactful on Japan than on civs with UBs focused on other yields, like gold or production.

If the upcoming changes mentioned stay as they are now, I think Japan is better having some additional adjustments, if just to not be affected too much. A suggestion that I hope the AI won't have trouble using:

- UA: Units also start with +10 XP. Helps in early wars, speeds up the UA yields and, this way, the 0 yields on the first promotion is at least justified. Maybe increase the barbarian xp cap by 10 for Japan as well.

I don't know of a way to deal with the lower yeilds of the Dojo on puppets, the UB is already strong as it is on non-puppet cities, and the yields are aligned with the civ's current focus.

The Japanese AI is performing very well - I would not stress too much.

G

 

[Legen]

That reminds me, the AI gains free XP in higher difficulties, right? At least, it was so in the vanilla (10 XP emperor, 30 XP Immortal and Deity), it would make sense for Japan AI to fare well with the new UA. Does it happen in lower difficulties as well?

 

[Gazebo]

That reminds me, the AI gains free XP in higher difficulties, right? At least, it was so in the vanilla (10 XP emperor, 30 XP Immortal and Deity), it would make sense for Japan AI to fare well with the new UA. Does it happen in lower difficulties as well?

Somewhat - nevertheless I debug on lowest difficulty.

G

 

[Legen]

It's good that the AI is performing well then, I remember it used to fall behind with ease.

The idea of free +10 XP still seems good for the player, though. The reason why the UA yields felt too weak in the pre-medieval portion of the game is about how long it takes to get to the 3rd and 4th levels, which a +10 XP would address. A free level at the start also helps Japan to be aggressive against a neighbor earlier, so its units don't have to wait much to gain experience.

 

[Legen]

So, I posted my suspicion about AI Japan in the beta thread. I think the de facto UA for AI Japan is:

"Gain Culture and Science whenever you create or purchase a unit."

, on top of the "yields on leveling" part during pre-medieval game. Maybe Japan could have the above as its UA? I'm finding that the current UA has a huge disparity in how it performs between the AI and the player. More specifically, I'm thinking of Japan having the following as its UA:

"Gain Culture and Science whenever you create, purchase or upgrade a unit. Civs without Trade Routes from you cannot send you Trade Routes and have a -50% Tourism penalty with you."

, where the yields are a percentage of the base production cost of the created/purchased unit, or, in the upgrade case, the production cost of the newer unit type. The idea is to use what has been working for the AI and adjust it to have a closer effect for the player as well. The "yields on leveling" can return to the Dojo, where the AI has less conditions to exploit it.

The reason to add the upgrade part is to invalidate using the gold for additional unit purchases (possibly disbanding experienced units), which can feel conflicting with the "yields on leveling" in the Dojo. Moreover, it opens lategame synergies with more wonders and policies (notably, Colonialism), which can be what the civ needs to compete for a scientific victory.

The overall theme for Japan could be of a civilization that can thrive by focusing on its military, even in peacetime. With other civs, spending production and gold on units is usually an expense, and may feel crippling to the civ's development if there's no short term prospect of war. For Japan, military units would be part of the country's development regardless of conquest, and work well with the possibility of a defensive-minded scientific victory, where the player is striving by having a high-tech army and defending itself from a cultural victory.

 

[Legen]

I still feel frustrated with the UA and I would like to hear the opinions of others, maybe I'm missing something.

For Ancient-Classical era, the UA still feels like a much weaker version of uniques like Aztecs UA or Celts Morrigan pantheon. The UA is slow without the free XP from buildings or the AI's bonuses.

For the midgame, I find that what pushes Japan is the Dojo's promotion and pure conquest. Having a large number of puppets for free / (which the Dojo stats help a lot) is relatively easy for Japan, and usually matters more than the UA's yields. Having Dojo + Samurai helps to get good yields, but falls off in relevance somewhere during Renaissance.

The UA can gain relevance again at late Industrial, with Military Academies + Branderburg Gate + Elite Forces + Orders belief, but isn't guaranteed. I think it can match the former "GWAM on Great General/Admiral birth" if accomplished, now that the iLevelUp = 5 means any new unit would give +70 /, but isn't something Japan is tailored to consistently get.

Overall, I still feel that the UA should be something different. I like the theme of "yields on leveling" for Japan, but I think the current scaling doesn't help enough to get started in the earlier eras, the reason given for the change in the May 22nd version (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/new-version-may-22nd-5-22.615959/).

The Sakoku part of the UA isn't attractive with the addition of culture on trade routes either. Japan usually takes time to get a cultural or scientific advantage, so it actually wants to receive trade routes early on, rather than block them, especially when you have only 1 route. The Sakoku part may need a revision or adaptation.

And the UA still encourages warfare even before Japan has access to its unique promotion. Maybe the Dojo's promotion should be back to the UA, as it is in the vanilla? Japan originally had a combat advantage already at turn 1, the promotion works really well with Authority's policies and the original reason for moving it to the Dojo was because the former "GWAM on GG/GA + Sakoku" UA wording was too long. Swapping the Dojo promotion with the UA "yields on leveling" may end netting more early yields from Authority's policies, at least for the player, due to its better timing.

The virtues may also be more interesting at Ancient Era, when you still have very few units and need to maximize any unique benefits and combinations they may provide. The way you try to maximize a Courage + Righteousness combination of early warriors would be different from a Self Control + Benevolence or Honor + Loyalty, for instance.

Overall, I'd consider the following:

- Swapping the Dojo's promotion with the UA's "yields on leveling"
- Increase the Dojo's free XP to make the lategame yields less reliant on Orders and Branderburg Gate
- revision Sakoku in light of the culture on trade routes

 

[Legen]

Does the wording of the Sakoku aspect need to be that long? Part of why it had resistance when proposed was because, in order to have space for it, the combat bonus had to be moved to the Dojo. A different wording could open space for a third aspect in the UA:

Civs without Trade Routes from you cannot send you Trade Routes and have a -50% Tourism penalty with you.
-50% Tourism and no Trade Route from civs without Trade Routes from you.

Which could open space to squeeze the unique promotion to the UA, without removing the "yields on leveling" aspect:

"Mounted, Melee, Gun and Armor units get the Eight Virtues of Bushido promotion. Gain Culture and Science when units promote based on Level. -50% Tourism and no Trade Route from civs without Trade Routes from you."

If not for the promotion itself, at least to open space for future design options.

 

[Gazebo]

Does the wording of the Sakoku aspect need to be that long? Part of why it had resistance when proposed was because, in order to have space for it, the combat bonus had to be moved to the Dojo. A different wording could open space for a third aspect in the UA:

Civs without Trade Routes from you cannot send you Trade Routes and have a -50% Tourism penalty with you.
-50% Tourism and no Trade Route from civs without Trade Routes from you.

Which could open space to squeeze the unique promotion to the UA, without removing the "yields on leveling" aspect:

"Mounted, Melee, Gun and Armor units get the Eight Virtues of Bushido promotion. Gain Culture and Science when units promote based on Level. -50% Tourism and no Trade Route from civs without Trade Routes from you."

If not for the promotion itself, at least to open space for future design options.

I appreciate the brevity, but the UA was changed for balance issues, not because of title length alone.

G

 

[Legen]

I see. Still nice to know. Also, about the current UA, is it intended for it to generate 0 yields when the unit reaches level 2 (10 XP)? The (equivalent) formula is:

Value = (iPassYield - 1)² * iLevelUpYield

where iPassYield is using the former level, rather than the new level. This is what has been making the UA feel slow for the player, you need 30 XP (level 3) to get the initial 5 and 5 .

Adjusting the formula to something like Value = max {1, (iPassYield - 1)²} * iLevelUpYield would already do a lot to improve how this UA performs for the player.

EDIT: fourth line.

 

[kawyua]

I do think there is someway to make the UA strong with scouts farming on pillaging roads and archers on something like citystates, but I haven't took the time to try. Sakoku rewards the player for finding safe ways to farm xp and I feel compelled to optimize for it. At the same time, it is quite tiring to think about.

Yields from levels is a function of xp, so I made some sums
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/nwclapspru

I don't enough experience to make any statements about the xp I can make in each era, but it doesn't seem that exciting without some kind of trick or whatever.

What you're suggesting with starting from the new level is a pretty big buff. At least, quite a bit bigger than the change from the scaling of 4 to 5. Although, I do wish Japans UA wasn't so dependent on high level troops. It just feels caustic to play with. Sigh, I don't like it, but I guess if the ai can work with it, then its fine.

 

[Legen]

I do think there is someway to make the UA strong with scouts farming on pillaging roads and archers on something like citystates, but I haven't took the time to try. Sakoku rewards the player for finding safe ways to farm xp and I feel compelled to optimize for it. At the same time, it is quite tiring to think about.

Yields from levels is a function of xp, so I made some sums
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/nwclapspru
I don't enough experience to make any statements about the xp I can make in each era, but it doesn't seem that exciting without some kind of trick or whatever.

What you're suggesting with starting from the new level is a pretty big buff. At least, quite a bit bigger than the change from the scaling of 4 to 5. Although, I do wish Japans UA wasn't so dependent on high level troops. It just feels caustic to play with. Sigh, I don't like it, but I guess if the ai can work with it, then its fine.

The actual suggestion is to make the 0 - 5 - 20 yields on the 1st (10XP) - 2nd (30XP) - 3rd (60XP) promotion to change to 5 - 5 - 20 yields instead, so the UA has more use in the Ancient Era. The part of using the new level, instead of the former level, is due to what Gazebo had posted earlier, which stated the formula was to use the new level:

I forget who originally created the level up formula, but right now it is:

Value = ((((iPassYield * iPassYield) - (2 * iPassYield) + 1)) * iLevelUpYield)

iPassYield = new level of unit (1, 2, 3, etc.); iLevelUpYield = UA yield.

Value was 4, now will be 5.

You can run the math: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/axaeitdjbf

G

About the former/new level part, I only want confirmation. For adjustment, I think an adjustment like in the formula

Value = max{1, (iPassYield - 1)²} * iLevelUpYield

would be enough. The graph would be https://www.desmos.com/calculator/quz98wcue2 , where x = times the unit was promoted. In the long run, the extra yields on the first leveling should be small compared to how much you gain per turn.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Hi. I think I read somewhere that there's been a change into how bonus science&culture from Japan's UA are calculated. Is it true? In the latest version, how much do you get for the first, second, third..., promotions? Thanks.

 

[Legen]

Unless something is undocumented, it should be only a 25% yield increase. The formula is (FormerLevel - 1)² * 5. Example:

1st promotion (10XP): FormerLevel = 1, so 0 /
2nd promotion (30XP): FormerLevel = 2, so 5 /
3nd promotion (60 XP): 20 /
4th promotion (100XP): 45 /
5th promotion (150XP): 80 /