JFK: The Smoking Gun

[Bamspeedy]

Conspiracies are utter nonsense unless they point the finger at authorities, is that the belief going on here?

So can we get some names of the witnesses who smelled 'gunpowder'. There are plenty who smelled cigarette smoke and motorcycle exhaust. One witness who smelled gunpowder was blocks away.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/smell.htm

 

[Formaldehyde]

Why don't you watch the video and see for yourself. They include a number of law enforcement personnel who are quite familiar with the smell.

And your website is completely wrong. Why would Earle V. Brown be stationed so far away from the motorcade when he was actually standing at the overpass where the motorcade immediately went after Kennedy was shot? The movie also makes this quite clear by providing footage of where he was actually standing at the time.

There were 40 people who either smelled gunpowder or thought that a shot occurred from someplace other than the school book depository. Many of them assumed it must have been from the "grassy knoll", which would have been even more contradictory from the evidence from the head wound that killed Kennedy.

More on the smell of gunpowder:

From "Murder From Within" on the gunpowder "nose witnesses:"

***Motorcycle escort officer Billy J. Martin, riding one-half car length from the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine, recalled, “You could smell the gunpowder… you knew he wasn’t far away. When you’re that close, you can smell the powder burning. Why you—you’ve got to be pretty close to them… you could smell the gunpowder… right there in the street.”63 (Figure 3-7) “Nose” witnesses Sen. Ralph Yarborough rode in the second car behind the limousine. He smelled gunpowder in the street64 and said it clung to the car throughout the race to Parkland Hospital.65 He later commented, “. . . you don’t smell gunpowder unless you’re shooting at something up wind and it blows it back in your face…”65-a As noted, the motorcade headed into a breeze—photographs show bystanders’ skirts billowing in the wind. At Parkland Hospital Yarborough told reporters “the third shot may have been a Secret Service man returning fire”.65-b Two cars behind Yarborough was the Cabell car. Elizabeth Cabell said she “. . . was acutely aware of the odor of gunpowder.”66 She added Congressman Ray Roberts, seated next to her, had mentioned it also.67 According to press photographer Tom C. Dillard, two cars behind the Cabell car, he “. . . very definitely smelled gunpowder when the cars moved up to the corner [of Elm and Houston Streets].”68 Bystander Virgie Rackley stood in front of the depository building close to the street. “She recalled that after the second shot, she smelled gunsmoke…”69 At the time of the shots, patrolman Joe M. Smith moved from the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets toward the triple underpass.70 Patrolman Earle V. Brown, stationed 100 yards west of the underpass, heard the shots and then smelled gunpowder as the car sped beneath him.71 A police officer who was on the sixth floor of the depository shortly after the shooting failed to smell any gunpowder there.72 One newspaper summed it up: “. . . seconds later the cavalcade was gone. The area still reeked with the smell of gunpowder.”73 Shots from the sixth floor of the depository building would have caused no gunpowder smell in the street. ***

Why is it you had no problem finding a contradictory website with a google search but didn't notice the other ones?

 

[Bugfatty300]

40 people! 30,000+ people saw invisible virgin marry whirling the sun around in the sky above Portugal, according to some sources. Doesn't mean those written/personal accounts are worth anything.

 

[Bamspeedy]

40 out of hundreds of people who were there.

Why is it you had no problem finding a contradictory website with a google search but didn't notice the other ones?

I have posted from that site before in other JFK threads in CFC OT. Perhaps you are the one using google.

If we believe everything ever written as 'evidence' then:

The grassy knoll was a very busy place with many gunmen who never saw each other.

There were at least 10 individuals depicted in the photos of the three tramps.

There were at least 30 gunmen firing from 4 different buildings, the overpass, the grassy knoll, the south knoll, the presidential limo, the secret service follow-up car, the curb on Elm, and the sewer.

There were at least 100 conspirators in Dealy Plaza.

 

[Bugfatty300]

I also like how a single shot from an AR-15 in an open area with it's tiny cartridge powder load allegedly produced this huge footprint of residue that filled Dealey Plaza causing dozens of people to smell it.

Are we talking about an AR-15 or a flintlock musket?

 

[Bamspeedy]

I also like how a single shot from an AR-15 in an open area with it's tiny cartridge powder load allegedly produced this huge footprint of residue that filled Dealey Plaza causing dozens of people to smell it.

Are we talking about an AR-15 or a flintlock musket?

I was just thinking about that. Is Form saying the shot came from the motorcade, lingered on the vehicles and they carried the smell 100 yards or more later, allowing the cop to smell it as they drove past?

 

[Bugfatty300]

I was just thinking about that. Is Form saying the shot came from the motorcade, lingered on the vehicles and they carried the smell 100 yards or more later, allowing the cop to smell it as they drove past?

Pretty much. If he's sticking to the Secret Service agent accidental discharge hypothesis, then that's what he's saying happened.

So two fundamental pieces of 'evidence' mentioned in the OP; standard ball rounds from Oswald's rifle not being able to cause the head injury to JFK and the gunpowder smells are respectively false and the latter is just outright implausible.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I was just thinking about that. Is Form saying the shot came from the motorcade, lingered on the vehicles and they carried the smell 100 yards or more later, allowing the cop to smell it as they drove past?

I'm not "saying" anything. I am merely repeating what other incredibly reliable witnesses have stated, instead of deliberately ignoring everything that doesn't conform to your own preconceived notions of what might have occurred.

"Conspiracies are utter nonsense unless they" don't "point the finger at authorities, is that the belief going on here?"

 

[PhroX]

Pretty much. If he's sticking to the Secret Service agent accidental discharge hypothesis, then that's what he's saying happened.

So two fundamental pieces of 'evidence' mentioned in the OP; standard ball rounds from Oswald's rifle not being able to cause the head injury to JFK and the gunpowder smells are respectively false and the latter is just outright implausible.

That pretty much sums up every conspiracy theory. False "evidence" and implausible ideas. Even when there are doubts over the official line, none of the conspiracies actually present a more reasonable and plausible narrative, nor do they hold up to the kind of scrutiny the official explanation recieves...

 

[Formaldehyde]

I'm not claiming it must be true. I am claiming that it does fit much of the evidence which has been largely ignored. That numerous quite reliable witnesses have provided contradictory statements which don't correspond to the official explanation.

Again, how could a 6.5mm FMJ bullet have caused a smaller diameter entrance wound in Kennedy's skull? How could it shatter into so many fragments and blow off the top right portion of Kennedy's skull if the shot was fired from overhead and to the right when the entrance wound was in the back of his skull?

 

[Bamspeedy]

Spoiler :

His head was tilted down (from being shot in the throat/neck), so a shot coming from above makes more sense than a shot from the motorcade following him, which would basically require them to be inches behind and then higher than him to shoot downward.

The path appearing to come from the left is an interesting point. From the "snipers nest" it is not too far to the right (20 degree angle?), that if JFK is turning a little to the left, that would change where it appears the shot came from by the same amount. Obviously JFK is not turned completely to the left (frame 312, just before the shot) but I don't think he is looking perfectly straight ahead either.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Again, how could a 6.5mm FMJ bullet have caused a smaller diameter entrance wound in Kennedy's skull? How could it shatter into so many fragments and blow off the top right portion of Kennedy's skull if the shot was fired from overhead and to the right when the entrance wound was in the back of his skull?

The bullet itself didn't blow the top of his skull off. The energy being dumped into his brain matter by the bullet created a pressure wave which caused that injury. The brain is almost completely enclosed by the skull and is mostly made up water and water doesn't compress. This is terminal ballistics 101. Shoot an empty can and the bullet will go in and out leaving two similar sized holes. Shoot a can filled with water and the can will be ripped apart by the pressure wave.

 

[Rashiminos]

First off, let me make it quite clear that I am far from being a conspiracy theorist when it comes to the JFK assassination.

I'm not wearing a tinfoil hat, but aliens...

Spoiler :

zZzZzZzZzZ

Spoiler :

Baa-aah.

Spoiler :

Jack Ruby was clearly the better shot.

 

[Formaldehyde]

The bullet itself didn't blow the top of his skull off. The energy being dumped into his brain matter by the bullet created a pressure wave which caused that injury. The brain is almost completely enclosed by the skull and is mostly made up water and water doesn't compress. This is terminal ballistics 101. Shoot an empty can and the bullet will go in and out leaving two similar sized holes. Shoot a can filled with water and the can will be ripped apart by the pressure wave.

Typically, the exit wound is caused by the bullet leaving the skull in a direct path between the entry wound and the shooter. This is particularly true with FMJ bullets fired from high powered rifles when the bullet does not strike the skull tangentially. If this was caused by a FMJ bullet it left the skull at least somewhere along where the skull was torn away, as it is in the Wiki drawing that Bamspeedy provided above.

I really don't see how you can place JFK's body in the limousine to allow this trajectory to point back to the book depository. He would have had to have been slumped down with his head pointing considerably to the left. The Zapruder film does not show this occurring.

 

[Berzerker]

I am convinced that Oswald acted alone.

two words: Jack Ruby

 

[Kyriakos]

Just Get Jack Reacher :/

 

[Bamspeedy]

Typically, the exit wound is caused by the bullet leaving the skull in a direct path between the entry wound and the shooter. This is particularly true with FMJ bullets fired from high powered rifles when the bullet does not strike the skull tangentially. If this was caused by a FMJ bullet it left the skull at least somewhere along where the skull was torn away, as it is in the Wiki drawing that Bamspeedy provided above.

I really don't see how you can place JFK's body in the limousine to allow this trajectory to point back to the book depository. He would have had to have been slumped down with his head pointing considerably to the left. The Zapruder film does not show this occurring.

If you accept that picture shows an accurate portrayal of the bullet's path to show the bullet must have came from the left, you must accept the trajectory came from above and I don't see how the shot could have come from the motorcade if this is true.

His head is tilted down, do we agree on that?

Whether his body is turned at all to the left is hard to tell if his body is slightly turned or if it's an illusion from his arm being raised. I can agree he isn't facing 90 degrees to the left.

From the alleged vantage point in the book depository it is a shot from the right, but not too far from center, so JFKs head turned a little to the left could move the shot coming from the right to looking like it came from directly behind or even from the left if he turns far enough.

But I don't know if we should be taking the picture as 100% accurate. it's just far more accurate than these versions:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/head.htm

 

[Formaldehyde]

If you accept that picture shows an accurate portrayal of the bullet's path to show the bullet must have came from the left, you must accept the trajectory came from above and I don't see how the shot could have come from the motorcade if this is true.

You mean the drawing you posted instead of a picture?

No, the location of the entry wound in that drawing doesn't appear to agree with the recent movie at all. The movie version seemed to be lower than it is in the drawing, more like the "Groden version" in the last URL you posted but possibly even lower.

Also, from the last URL you just posted, it is quite evident there is large disagreement where the exit path actually was as well. The drawing you initially posted has it located at the lowest point it could possibly be at given the damage to the skull. Both the Gruden version and the Warren Commission drawing show an even shallower bullet trajectory. And this is despite the Warren Commission version having his head cocked downward far more than it is in the Zapruder film still.

Again, the Zapruder still frame you just posted shows that Kennedy's head was not anywhere near a position where even the entry wound and the location of the exit of the bullet from your own drawing matches up with the 6th floor of the school book depository. Using that Zapruder film still shot as a reference, one could easily imagine that the bullet path was parallel to the ground instead of at a far larger downward angle that your original drawing suggests.

I suggest you watch the movie and view the evidence provided. Reelz continues to show the movie quite frequently. It will be rebroadcast 6 more times between tomorrow and Tues, 11/19. It was this seeming contradiction in the angle of the head wound trajectory combined with the entry wound being too small for a 6.5mm bullet that led to this theory of what might have occurred instead.

 

[Bamspeedy]

And why must the movie's presentation of the evidence be true? The drawing I posted more accurately represents the autopsy and X-ray evidence, the Groden drawing more accurately represents what conspiracy theorists WANT to believe.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/xray/dox/dox.htm

I take the Groden drawing and tilt JFKs head down to more match his heads position in the Zapruder film and I see a downward shot trajectory.

He's not turned far enough to the left? From the angle the drawing is from (behind and to the right of the head) the drawing of the bullets path is going to look like a bigger left to right angle than it really is. It would have been nice to have shown a birds eye view to know if this was a 10 degree left to right angle (believable) or a 50 degree angle or more (not believable).


Or how about the bullet fragments in his head. I think that also shows a downward trajectory when you tilt the head down to match the Zapruder film.

Spoiler :

 

[Formaldehyde]

And why must the movie's presentation of the evidence be true?

Did I ever claim it was? Why are you so reluctant to merely see the film? How can you possibly discuss what it alleges without really knowing for yourself what it states?

Why do you keep ignoring that the skull entry wound is supposedly too small for a 6.5mm bullet? How would you explain that?

I take the Groden drawing and tilt JFKs head down to more match his heads position in the Zapruder film and I see a downward shot trajectory.

Again, you only do so if you assume the bullet exited from as low a position as possible given the damage to the skull. This is just as much an interpretation of the evidence as the film presents, which may not be "true" either.

If you use the very same entry wound as represented in the drawing and the supposed X-ray, you can represent a completely level bullet trajectory while still remaining within the area of the missing frontal skull fragments.

He's not turned far enough to the left?

Again, not only is he apparently not turned far enough to the left, it also seems that his head is nowhere near down enough.

Your very own image from yet another unspecified source of what Oswald's view was probably like when he took the shot appears to contradict this interpretation. It is also clearly nowhere near the position of the president's body from the Zapruder still image immediately above, which shows him sitting upright instead of hunched over. Nor does it accurately reflect the position of the First Lady whose right arm is clearly not around his neck while seeming to pull his body down. It doesn't even accurately represent the positions of Governor Connally and his wife.