[RD] JK Rowling and Explicit Transphobia

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It's fairly boilerplate for a civility-minded phobic to package the reprehensible with the reasonable. "Let's have a look at what else she has to say" legitimizes the things she said that you're conveniently ignoring in the pursuit of the full picture.

Mind, the full picture can be important, but less so if the person is doubling down on the reprehensible. What they say that may be reasonable becomes far less relevant when it's the reprehensible being taken issue with.
 
The aforementioned websites are just mouthpieces for gender critical/terf theory, it's ****ing gross seeing someone citing responses from them as some sort of neutral indication that ROGD is a real thing. Absolute bunk, absolute crap.

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Sorry for getting so worked up but this is just more disinformation and bile spread by people who obviously take issue with our existence.

Transpeople, regardless of age, have always existed throughout various societies, cultures and time periods, this attempt to label it a phase or a "trend" is akin to trying to erase our experiences and existence.

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Transgendertrend has videos of transphobe Magdalen Berns, uncritically amplifying and spreading her ****, the same person who equated transwomen to men and degraded their transition to fetishism. Just absolute ****.
 
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She doubled down on her previous transphobic rhetoric, re-used the "man in a dress enters woman's changing room" argument, said that feminists also stand with transmen because they were born female, etc.

The whole belief that being trans is akin to a social contagion is absolute bull****, as it was when it was used again the LGB community.

Obviously there's going to be more people coming out and seeking transition as attitudes change, especially when there was a massive derth of information about it in the recent past.

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also the study you cited relied on parents, not the children themselves, reporting supposed "Rapid onset gender dysphoria" on websites called "Transgendertrend" "youthtranscriticalprofessionals" and "4thwavenow", websites that are openly transphobic.

You do understand that everything you said is just your personal opinion, nothing more, nothing less. You just say different opinions from yours are BS without any real arguments or evidence. Then you say anyone disagreeing with you is "transphopic". If someone disagrees with you they offend you. You area basically saying "my opinion is right" and if you disagree you are "bad person". Im not amused.

It does seem that transexualism is largely a cultural phenomenon. Just like sexual identity and sexual practices are largely cultural phenomenons. Labels and identities are modern phenomenon. Its questionable if Ancient Greeks for example even had sexual identity.

One might even say that all these labels and identities are very harmful and restrictive for the individual. They might stop people from being their real selves. Some people seem to absorb identity and change themselves to fit that identity. Not the other way round.
 
You do understand that everything you said is just your personal opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

It must hurt knowing that the medical and scientific community align to my side, going to the point where they even acknowledge the benefits of affirming transpeople in their gender they are transitioning to.

You just say different opinions from yours are BS without any real arguments or evidence.

That's strange because later on in the same post you do exactly what you accuse me of.

Then you say anyone disagreeing with you is "transphopic". If someone disagrees with you they offend you. You area basically saying "my opinion is right" and if you disagree you are "bad person".

If you disagree with me that i am a woman, then yes you are engaging in bigotry, no different than if you were to say to a Black Person they aren't a full human being.

Im not amused.

I don't care about you.

It does seem that transexualism is largely a cultural phenomenon. Just like sexual identity and sexual practices are largely cultural phenomenons. Labels and identities are modern phenomenon. Its questionable if Ancient Greeks for example even had sexual identity.

One that spans continents, disperate cultures, religions, nations and time periods. I don't know much about the greeks, but i'm pretty sure they knew of sexual identity.
 
Some info about the Littman controversy:

Littman became interested in the possible role of "social contagion" in gender dysphoria among young people, and conducted a study by surveying around 250 parents recruited from three websites where she had seen parents describe sudden gender transitions in their adolescents.[5] She presented preliminary results at a 2017 conference, and a descriptive study was initially published in PLOS One in August 2018.[5][1]

Littman's study described cases of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria based on reports by the surveyed parents,[5] along with information that was collected about the children's peer group dynamics, social media use, and prior mental health issues.[11] Littman speculated that rapid onset of gender dysphoria could be a "social coping mechanism" for other disorders, such as depression and anxiety caused by adolescent trauma.[1]

"social contagion" and imitating behavior is nothing new, neither is the fact that gender dysphoria is comorbid with a bunch of other conditions (I do not know if the same is true vice-versa). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comorbidity

In principle her hypothesis is nothing revolutionary and indeed not very problematic. Some of the most extremist positions critisized her hypothesis in itself as discriminatory (which could be taken as a stance against freedom in science), but the fact of the matter is that Littman was mostly attacked for her self-selection bias and flawed methodology.

And those attacks seemed to not be baseless. Even though Littman's paper was championed in Science, the criticism of its scientific validity was enough for her to make a redaction.

Responding to negative comments, PLOS One announced two weeks after publication that it would open a post-publication review of the study's methodologies and analyses.[13][5][4]

In March 2019, PLOS One completed its post-publication review, and Littman's corrected version of the paper was published on March 19, 2019.[14] In the journal's blog, PLOS One editor Joerg Heber apologized "to the trans and gender variant community" for the previous review and publication, saying "the study, including its goals, methodology, and conclusions, were not adequately framed in the published version, and that these needed to be corrected."[15] Heber noted that the hypothesized condition of ROGD had "not yet been clinically validated."[15]

it seems like the changes were quite vast and included methodology among other issues:

[T]he post-publication review identified issues that needed to be addressed to ensure the article meets PLOS ONE's publication criteria. Given the nature of the issues in this case, the PLOS ONE Editors decided to republish the article, replacing the original version of record with a revised version in which the author has updated the Title, Abstract, Introduction, Discussion, and Conclusion sections, to address the concerns raised in the editorial reassessment. The Materials and methods section was updated to include new information and more detailed descriptions about recruitment sites and to remove two figures due to copyright restrictions. Other than the addition of a few missing values in Table 13, the Results section is unchanged in the updated version of the article.[3]

Littman herself vastly downplayed the changes to her publication, you can choose who you think is more realiable:

The manuscript was meticulously evaluated, and, in response to the resulting feedback, changes were made to several sections of the paper, though the methods and findings remained mostly unchanged.

Though she does admit (in a print interview) that she did change methodology, if only slightly. Which is a pretty big deal.

It is, of course, quite ironic that @Truthy reposted this paper uncritically, seeing as he is not only aware of trans-issues and a great critical thinker, but also (iirc) a practicing academic and someone with more scientific literacy than most people (here or anywhere). This speaks volumes about the ideological bend of this discussion and that this is not, and never was, an empiric or objective discussion, but a discussion that is highly emotional and draws from subconscious sources. Most of our beliefs, after all, are not explicit. That is true about metaphysical beliefs as much as beliefs about gender or our social reality. Seems a lot of people implicitly agree with Rowling and have the same deep-seated fears, but are afraid to openly voice that, because they don't want to be labeled transphobic, so they shift the overton window to freeze peach.

And it only goes to support my (and @Synsensa s) point that people weirdly seem to be going out of their way to defend something they apparently don't particularly believe in, to ignore the negative and highlight the "good points", refer constantly to free speech and free science, to shift the debate window, and so forth. I don't see any maliciousness in it personally, but I find it highly questionable.

In the end though the important question is whether Littman published something that is helpful and up to academic standards. From all I have read, it seems she did have good intentions, and after republication her paper definitely did meet peer-review standards. Maybe she rushed it, and the paper suffered for it. It seemed almost too perfect a timing. Maybe she made a mistake with only interviewing the parents (I consider that a heavy mistake, personally). Maybe she started with too strong of a hypothesis and ended up in confirmation bias territory too quickly. But all this notwithstanding, I do think her work is legitimate and has no clear anti-trans ideological bend. It is completely different from, say, that paper that @Robo-Star posted, which was clearly just a hitpiece disguised as science.

If you want to read a proper scientific critique, see if you have access to this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7012957/
 
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I don't see any maliciousness in it personally, but I find it highly questionable.

It's a pretty charged thing to do to come into a topic about transpeople and uncritically cite a paper that claims ROGD exists, as a basis on which to claim some of JK's comments are "reasonable", which is used to attack the transcommunity.

On the first page of the study they even tell you where they got the data from, even a cursory glance at the websites in question show they are clearly anti-transpeople.
 
Some info about the Littman controversy:



"social contagion" and imitating behavior is nothing new, neither is the fact that gender dysphoria is comorbid with a bunch of other conditions (I do not know if the same is true vice-versa). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comorbidity

In principle her hypothesis is nothing revolutionary and indeed not very problematic. Some of the most extremist positions critisized her hypothesis in itself as discriminatory (which could be taken as a stance against freedom in science), but the fact of the matter is that Littman was mostly attacked for her self-selection bias and flawed methodology.

And those attacks seemed to not be baseless. Even though Littman's paper was championed in Science, the criticism of its scientific validity was enough for her to make a redaction.



it seems like the changes were quite vast and included methodology among other issues:



It is, of course, quite ironic that @Truthy reposted this paper uncritically, seeing as he is not only aware of trans-issues and a great critical thinker, but also (iirc) a practicing academic and someone with more scientific literacy than most people (here or anywhere). And it only goes to support my (and @Synsensa s) point that people weirdly seem to be going out of their way to defend something they apparently don't particularly believe in, to ignore the negative and highlight the "good points", refer constantly to free speech and free science, to shift the debate window, and so forth. I don't see any maliciousness in it personally, but I find it highly questionable.
I appreciate the compliments.

A mistake I'll acknowledge: I should have linked to the revised version of the Littman paper instead of the original.

But let me note that they didn't retract or redact the publication. Brown took down promotional material after it generated controversy. What the actual journal, PLOS, did was an extensive post-publication review (on top of the original peer-review). That included investigating the potential selection bias in the survey recruitment. They found the paper was still worthy of publication. Also, note that PLOS is one of the most prestigious and rigorous journals. Call me naive, but I trust them to have done their due diligence given the controversial circumstances.

Another thing to emphasize before we rush to the conclusion that the paper was garbage, as that's where the discussion seems to be headed: the editor said "[the issues] were not adequately framed in the published version". He's not saying the methodologies themselves were that bad. He's saying they had limitations and they should have been framed better. As far as I can tell, the "framing" issue was addressed pretty well in the revised version.

In terms of the recruitment issue, like I said, frankly I trust the two rounds of peer-review more than I trust OT. But note this from the revised version: "The use of targeted recruitment and convenience samples, used elsewhere and in this study, offers the benefit of connecting with hard-to-reach populations but introduces limitations associated with selection bias that can subsequently be addressed by further studies. For the current study, selection bias may have resulted in findings that are more positive or more negative than would be found in a larger and less self-selected population. Subsequent studies should address these issues."

Edit: ""social contagion" and imitating behavior is nothing new, neither is the fact that gender dysphoria is comorbid with a bunch of other conditions (I do not know if the same is true vice-versa). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comorbidity" To be a bit on the nose - yes, I would say these are "good points".
 
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Its questionable if Ancient Greeks for example even had sexual identity.

Ancient Greeks invented most of the words we use today for sexual identities and attraction... Ever heard of the word pedophile, ephebophile, pederast, among others?..
 
But let me note that they didn't retract or redact the publication.

Sure, I only used the word redaction because that's what I translated from German into English. it was a post-publication review (as stated in the citations in my post). Just a semantic error.

Another thing to emphasize before we rush to the conclusion that the paper was garbage

I came to the opposite conclusion, I even bolded that part in my post. It's a flawed study, but it's not bad science like the other one we've seen.

Also, note that PLOS is one of the most prestigious and rigorous journals. Call me naive, but I trust them to have done their due diligence given the controversial circumstances.

I don't believe much in appeals to authority. Ivory University graduates often turn out to be ideological rabid dogs, racists, con-men or simply bad scientists, like Arthur Jensen, once one of the most respected psychologists in the world, who turned out to endorse right-wing think tank money and spent his entire latter life publishing literal racist science. There are infinite examples. I never trust prestige, neither should you.

In terms of the recruitment issue, like I said, frankly I trust the two rounds of peer-review more than I trust OT.

These peer-reviewers have an inherent interest in having their regular contributors look good. Don't give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

Even then still, it is obvious to everyone with even the slightest scientific legacy that her not talking at all to the children (who the study was about, in the end) is a glaring mistake. Even if she was to only refer to the interviews with the parents (which she did), she should have still talked to the children. Every undergrad should tell you that, you don't need a team of highly trained professionals.

Even the part you quote directly admits that the study has a selection bias, it's just not bad enough to make the results of the study worthless (which I agree with).

To be a bit on the nose - yes, I would say these are "good points".

As did I, but they're not really "points" yet, they are "pointers". As we already established, ROGD is not yet confirmed in any significant way.

Finally, a defensive quote from Littman herself:

Some critics have complained about several of the methods used in this study, specifically the use of parent report, targeted recruitment, and online, anonymous surveys. I didn’t invent any of these methods. They are established research methods that have been used in many studies, for many years, and somehow they have managed not to spark this level of outrage until now.

She acts like her approach is a standard procedure, but it really is not (I refer to the paper I posted earlier, a criticism of her methodology). Personally I would have taken both a qualitative and a quantitative approach to this problem, and honestly I think taking a purely quantitative approach is in itself already problematic. Online surveys are surely one of the worst ways, ever, to tackle a subject like this.

My guess is she completely ignored qualitative methods in order to have a higher sample size and less work, which is honestly understandable, but not respectable. She even hints at that fact in the interview:

Although there have been speculations about my affiliations, I am not a religious or political conservative and I am not a radical feminist. No organizations funded my study. That means that I pay out-of-pocket for research-related costs like printing, traveling to academic conferences, publication fees, etc

If you pay for your own study, it is somewhat understandable you do not have time, money or energy to do qualitative interviews with 200 subjects. doesn't change the fact that it's bad practice imho.
 
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Ancient Greeks invented most of the words we use today for sexual identities and attraction... Ever heard of the word pedophile, ephebophile, pederast, among others?..

Thats not actually true. These identity related terms are from the late 19th century. The fact that the words are Creek doesnt mean they are ancient. Pederasty was used in Ancient Greece, but it was a practice not identity.
 
note that PLOS is one of the most prestigious and rigorous journals. Call me naive, but I trust them to have done their due diligence given the controversial circumstances.
  • PLOS one has an impact factor of 2.87, that is pretty low. I have read some junk in it.
  • From the critique posted above, she described her hypothesis of social contagion in detail in the consent form. How anyone could assume this is am unbiased sample given that seems unreasonable.
  • And from above "Notably, 76.5% believed that their child’s trans identification is not correct, and recruitment relied heavily on three particular Web sites known to be frequented by parents specifically voicing out and promoting the concept of “ROGD.” Thus, these are not just “worried parents,” but rather a sample of predominantly White mothers who have strong oppositional beliefs about their children’s trans identification and who harbor suspicions about their children having “ROGD.”"
  • And no effort to catch repeat entries (it was an online survey)
 
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If you disagree with me that i am a woman, then yes you are engaging in bigotry, no different than if you were to say to a Black Person they aren't a full human being.

Being so called "black person" and being so called "transsexual" are totally different type of things. I dont think there is any reason to put them in the same category. These things have nothing to do with each other.

People can identify as they please, but denying biological facts is a different thing. I see no problem calling someone the way they want to be called, but saying there is no difference between so called CIS women and transwomen is nonsense.
 
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one thing to note about the author, Lisa Littman, is that she has repedeatly given interviews to websites or magazines with a very clear, or even open, anti-trans or radfem agenda, while she has done very few interviews in either academic-related media or nonspecific journalism. as a researcher you choose your media outlets carefully. if a renowned psychologist were to speak at a conference that championed eugenics, for example, that would very understandable generate criticism and draw their motives into question.

Pederasty was used in Ancient Greece, but it was a practice not identity.

sure, you can make that argument, a lot of sexuality was more seen in practice than as an identity in older times, generally speaking.

being a pedarast likely was not a sexual identity as we see them today, though I would say being a pedarast was generally a part of their identity (if they were), as some philosophers were very outspoken and highly opinionated on it.
 
Debunking overblown attribution of harm on a single particular bad post or set of posts.

Consider other nonsense/asinine propositions made on social media, similarly lacking accuracy and targeting a group of people without basis, and compare reactions in each case. If someone claims "all adult gamers are manchildren" or something, we can reasonably conclude that person's an idiot and move on. Even if we expect some ignorant element of the population might agree with the person's assessment. It's reasonable to call out the ignorance, but not to attribute this person's behavior to people being killed.

You don't seem to understand that hate speech doesn't require any particular evidence of harm to be harmful. As I said before - and you artfully dodged - there is no way to prove definitively that any speech affects a direct change in anything. The fact of the hate speech itself is what's harmful. Hate speech built a secular citadel of anti-semitism all under the guise of free speech and political pamphleteering. Like what's the cut-off? When can we say that hate speech has finally gone too far? When the murder rate increases - how much is enough? Or is it when an army has been raised under the flag of hate? Or is it after the fact, when we're tallying untold amounts of the dead? How much did Henry Ford contribute to the legitimacy of the Nazi regime?

Maybe you need a little bit of context, because it's not for nothing this is called hate speech. Transwomen have been murdered for being trans for decades. This concept of them as sexual predators - or enabling sexual predators - summons to mind a comparison with the savage notion that blacks and whites cannot comingle in public because black men will assault white women. Try to fathom the depths of hate and violence this lie has helped stoke. Black people have been lynched, their bodies left hanging from trees, terror-killings as a warning to others, all with the thin veneer of the violent chauvinism of protecting white women. Today a certain section of murderous bigots also target trans people in terror killings.

Quite frankly it's foolish to suppose Rowling's speech is harmless. Speech is a powerful weapon, Rowling is a powerful woman, and transwomen are a vulnerable group. "Ignorance," which you keep trotting out, is not the enemy, it's hatred, and hatred has motivated millions over the years to perform the most heinous murders. There is every reason to suppose Rowling is stoking the flames of an engine which is currently and actively killing people. With the fact being that transwomen are themselves targeted and murdered, a person who takes the podium to spread anti-trans propaganda knows exactly what they are doing, even if unconsciously. She's picked her side. And contrary to what you might think, it is not a small and meaningless side. It is a side that wants transpeople dead, is armed with weapons, and has put its money where its mouth is time and again.
 
Being so called "black person" and being so called "transsexual" are totally different type of things.

You're arguing in bad faith and from a position of ignorance, because you continue to insist on using terminology that the transcommunity is trying to distance itself from.

People can identify as they please, but denying biological facts is a different thing.

Another example; who is denying that i was born a male, assigned male at birth? Have i done that in this thread?

See i think you're hung up on the biological "facts" because you're a biological determinist and can't concede the fact that gender is not rooted in biology, but expression, identification, appearence etc.

I see no problem calling someone the way they want to be called, but saying there is no difference between so called CIS women and transwomen is nonsense.

You want to know what's nonsense? Giving you the benefit of the doubt, you clearly haven't read my previous posts because i even went so far as to say that transwomen don't have the same experiences when it comes to medical care, when it comes to biology and i'll even go so far as to ay upbringing, childhood experiences pre-transition.

It's not about the group as a whole, it's about tweens, who may or may not be in the group at all. No one's arguing that that group's idiosyncracies generalize to adults with stable transgender identifications.

It's the thin end of the wedge.

It's being used to justify preventing and blocking the use of hormone blockers, to allow the children in question to have more time before they make decisions they can't change, if you're versed in the transcommunity, it's a non-starter advocating for ROGD.
 
It's the thin end of the wedge.

It's being used to justify preventing and blocking the use of hormone blockers, to allow the children in question to have more time before they make decisions they can't change, if you're versed in the transcommunity, it's a non-starter advocating for ROGD.
You make this sound like a bad thing
 
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