Judas...

[warpus]

Judas betrayed Jesus, he knew he did wrong, that's why he hung himself, because he couldn't live with the guilt. He was in the wrong. God knew this would happen, and it was part of His plan, but Judas didn't know this was paret of God's plan. Straight to hell, this was an easy one.

So Judas had free will, but his fate was already predetermined? Sounds like a paradox to me

 

[JonnyB]

There's a difference between predetermined fate and knowing what someone is going to do.

Think of the Matrix, Neo didn't believe the Oracle because he felt it meant he didn't have free will.
But he did, and the oracle simply knew what his choices would be before he had to make them.
[/Nerd moment]

 

[Homie]

So Judas had free will, but his fate was already predetermined? Sounds like a paradox to me

Well its not. I was gonna do this one, but JonnyB already has it covered, using the Matrix no less

 

[DAv2003]

Ehmm, how exactly would they pick him out? By the wanted posters? They didn't have photography back then, so the only way the Romans could pick him out without Judas's help, was if one of the soldiers had seen him.

Wasn't he a prominent teacher? I would have thought the Romans could have just as easily took someone who'd seen Jesus and arrest him.

 

[warpus]

There's a difference between predetermined fate and knowing what someone is going to do.

Think of the Matrix, Neo didn't believe the Oracle because he felt it meant he didn't have free will.
But he did, and the oracle simply knew what his choices would be before he had to make them.
[/Nerd moment]

If someone knows every single thing that you're going to do, it means that your fate has been predetermined.

It also means that you do not have free will. If you don't know what you're going to do because you haven't been told, you simply have an illusion of free will.

The Matrix isn't a good example because it is fiction and the example you cite is philisophical mumbo jumbo, which the Matrix is famous for.

 

[Erik Mesoy]

I think we've been through this before... My history book describes what happened at previous points in time. If I send that history book back in time, I would not say that it causes everyone from then to now to lose their free will because their actions become predetermined.

 

[JonnyB]

Warpus, I don't really have an answer for that.

From a scientific perspective everything is determined by everything that came before it. Can anything we do be truly considered random? I don't know. That's one of the reasons I'm agnostic.

 

[Masquerouge]

I guess who Judas really was is pretty much irrelevant for Christianity's sake right now, unless you're going to start your own cult based on the Gospel of Judas.

But basically everything not canonical, i.e. everything not included after Nicaene, is a Christian heresy by definition.
So whether or not Judas was a good guy is a matter of historical interest only, because Christianity has already decided and won't likely change it.

 

[warpus]

I think we've been through this before... My history book describes what happened at previous points in time. If I send that history book back in time, I would not say that it causes everyone from then to now to lose their free will because their actions become predetermined.

If you sent it back in time couldn't the people in question read it and use their free will to make alternate choices that differed from what the book said?

If Judas' fate was predestined then he couldn't have changed it even if he knew about it. That's the difference.

 

[Homie]

Wasn't he a prominent teacher? I would have thought the Romans could have just as easily took someone who'd seen Jesus and arrest him.

That's what they did. That someone was Judas. Also, it would to their benefit to not only have someone who had seen Jesus, but someone who knew where He was at any given time, who better to do that than one of the apostles.

 

[JonnyB]

If someone knows every single thing that you're going to do, it means that your fate has been predetermined.

It also means that you do not have free will. If you don't know what you're going to do because you haven't been told, you simply have an illusion of free will.

The Matrix isn't a good example because it is fiction and the example you cite is philisophical mumbo jumbo, which the Matrix is famous for.

I'm going to try and answer this as best I can.

In this situation Judas did not make random acts, he made decisions. Those decisions were made based on an almost infinite numbers of variables.

Christians believe that God is omnipotent, and omniscient. That God has the ability to see what all of the variables affecting these decisions would be in any situation and thus knows what the outcome will be.

I don't know whether this supports free will or not. But if not then it disputes free will whether you are religious or not. (IMO)

 

[warpus]

Christians believe that God is omnipotent, and omniscient. That God has the ability to see what all of the variables affecting these decisions would be in any situation and thus knows what the outcome will be.

Technically impossible, since we live in a non-deterministic Universe

but I'll let it slide, seeing as how God is all-powerful and all

 

[Quasar1011]

Its not my place to judge if Judas is condemed to hell or in heaven. No mortal person can ever truthfully know if Judas is in heaven or hell. That is left up to God and his decision on Judas's fate.

Technically, CivGeneral is right, we cannot know for sure.

Indications (betrayal, suicide) say Hell.

Sorry, guys, but we can know- because Jesus answered this question already.

John 17:11-12
"I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."

another idea, what if satan had taken power over him and caused him to turn over jesus to spite god?

We don't need the "what if"; it happened.

Luke 22:3
"Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve."

 

[shortguy]

John 17:11-12
None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."

"Doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled"? Chilling language, and it raises the question of how much Judas is responsible for his doom.

On a side note, I just read Oedipus the King for Greek Civ, and the similarities are striking.

 

[Perfection]

From a scientific perspective everything is determined by everything that came before it.

Untrue! The current view of science is that there is a deep level stochastic (by chance) process to the universe.

In this situation Judas did not make random acts, he made decisions. Those decisions were made based on an almost infinite numbers of variables.

Doesn't that reduce Judas to an automaton?

 

[Stapel]

Whatever, I'd believe in great men through history before you. Especially since you're not really backing up what you say.

Well, the whole role of Judas seems to be 'too easy'. From a historical pov, I conclude the gospel's (certainly Mathew's and John's) are pro-Roman. To me, it seems rather obvious they were written (or possibly altered) by Romans. From a Roman perspective, it was useful to spread the idea Jesus was betrayed by a Jew. Hence the called the betrayor 'Jewy', in Latin Judas.

I can see this is far-fetched if you (try to) believe the Bible is the word of God. I don't believe in any gods, so I can come to such a conclusion a bit easier.
Giving names to persons afterwards can be proven though:
Thomas comes from the greek Thomadzein, which means 'to wonder'. It's quite obvious his name was given to him, after he wondered about Jesus' resurrection. Just like Thomas' parents didn't name their son 'He who wonders' at his birth, Judas' parents didn't give him the name 'Jew' at his birth.

I realsie it's only a theory which cannot be proven. But it's an intruiging theory anyway.

 

[JonnyB]

Untrue! The current view of science is that there is a deep level stochastic (by chance) process to the universe.

I realize that now, after I looked up what a non deterministic universe meant.

Darn you Warpus, making me learn like that...

Doesn't that reduce Judas to an automaton?

After reading Quasar1011's post, apparently

 

[Cheetah]

John 17:11-12
None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."

Luke 22:3
"Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve."

So God created Judas only to fullfill the Scripture and be sent to hell for eternal damnation?

That leaves only one conclusion for me, assuming that the Bible is true:

The Christian God is evil!

 

[Che Guava]

So God created Judas only to fullfill the Scripture and be sent to hell for eternal damnation?

That leaves only one conclusion for me, assuming that the Bible is true:

The Christian God is evil!

God never claimed to lead by example

 

[Quasar1011]

So God created Judas only to fullfill the Scripture and be sent to hell for eternal damnation?

That leaves only one conclusion for me, assuming that the Bible is true:

The Christian God is evil!

Why do so many people misplace blame? Did you not see the part of my post where I said that Satan entered Judas?

Christ chose Judas as one of His Apostles. All Judas had to do, was follow Christ, and Judas would have been saved. Judas had a choice. He cast his lot with those who would kill Jesus. No automaton there.

God foresaw all of this.

John 13:18-19
"I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.' I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He."

A better conclusion for you, Cheetah, would be that Satan is evil; and that God knows your future, but doesn't fix it in stone.