Jumpmasters 1B: Power is Knowledge (Vanilla, GOTM mod - Emperor - No research)

[Grunthex]

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear -- I'm familiar with that part.

If you have a built up city (that you own), is there a way to just abandon it without starve/settlering it down to 0?

 

[SesnOfWthr]

I know that if you right-click on the city in Conquests, you can choose to abandonit. Not so sure about in Vanilla though....

 

[mad-bax]

Yes, you can just right click and abandon. This is correct.

 

[AlanH]

Sorry for misunderstanding your question. In fact you *can't* reduce it to zero pop. If you try to build a worker or setter at pop 1 you won't build it until the town has grown enough to leave one after it's built.

And that's the humourous point about the screenie I posted for Ch'onju. The AI had a ten shields for a worker, but with pop 1 they were going to have to wait several turns to grow to pop 2 before building it. The AI civs often do that with settlers or workers.

 

[Grunthex]

Well, here it is!

Pre-Turn

Wow. Never having played one of these, it's shocking how much changes between plays.

I see we have 2 settlers currently, my plans for them are Karasu's 1, and NE of his 3. I moved it because it would get the river and still fits in the 8-ring from Almarikh. The 1 doesn't, but I see no better place (I picture a 5 site 3SW of this)

I wake the scout off his hill to see if any development has happened near Tsingtao (specifically Iron-connections).

Manual F4 check reveals nothing, and only place I MM a bit is in Baruun-Urt for more food (=power!) Press enter.

IBT:
Han Archer kills Barbarian in the southwest.

Ta-Tu: Galley->Chariot
Ulaanbaatar: Chariot->Chariot
Hovd: Chariot->Chariot
Darhan: Chariot->Chariot

Most of those will finish in 5 -- my goal is to have enough to make war by then.

Turn 1 (730 BC)

Workers mine hills, or chop forests. Sending 3 workers to road to Nanking.
First galley heads SE along coast, planning to get a settler to near Pusan... will have to be careful, this naval movement is new to me.
Scout enters Han forest -- worker is there right now, hooking up iron.

MM Erdenet to have barracks and growth in 3 (save 2 turns on barracks, lose 1 on growth) -- this means the barracks will be online when all my chariots are ready.

Hit enter

IBT:
Han ask us to leave. I agree. For now...

KK: Settler->Setller
Tabriz: Chariot->Galley
Dalandzadgad: Chariot->Chariot (Culture expansion!)
Choybalsan: Barracks->Chariot

Turn 2 (710 BC)

This differential movement means I can have 4-move galleys, if done right!
Galley reveals we can't put the city 1s of the Red Dot by Pusan.
On his way out of Han territory, scout confirms Tsingtao is road-linked to the capital.

Nothing new on tech front.

IBT: Wu-Ti of Han wants 100 gold. It's just a bit too early -- I cave in.
Mandalgovi culture-expands, showing us lambs on the far bit of the south island. I'm going to settle on the south end. It looks like it IS a peninsula connected to Korea.

Turn 3 (690 BC)

Settle Choyr NW of Batshireet (hopelessly corrupt): Temple. Choyr is coincidentally 8 from Beijing, and should (IMO) start our second ring (does this mean disc-placement around Almarikh within 8 is all good, or does that not work that way?)
Warrior sees a Han settler pair heading SW of Choyr. Stands in the way a little.
Workers mined an Almarikh hill -- MM a bit to cut 2 turns off the FP.
Settle Ulaangom NE of Karasu's 3-spot.: Worker.
Galley sees sea across ocean south of our island -- once the settler is dropped off, I will try to cross...

IBT: Han settlers turn around. Interesting. (Post-turn note, I never did see where they went!)
Erdenet: Barracks->Chariot

Turn 4 (670 BC)

Almost forget to do a happiness check, Almarikh grew to 6 (FP in 9) so I detour a chariot back from Erdenet to keep them happy. Nothing else of note.

IBT:
Ta-Tu: Chariot->Chariot (I thought about a galley here, but 4 or 5 are in production)

Turn 5 (650 BC)

Chariot looks at Nanking. Defended by a regular spear, some good infrastructure.
Realize Ulaangom's worker build made no sense -- change to Barracks, will supplement with a chop from incoming workers.
Tabriz reached size 7, and I make a clown. I only lose 1 gpt and 1fpt, and it saves me 11 gpt on the lux slider. Tabriz is now food-neutral.
Settler gets off with a warrior on Korean isle. Galley heads due south, and SEES coast, but doesn't make it. Cross fingers.
Still nothing on diplomacy front.

IBT:
KK: Settler->Settler
Kazan: Settler->Settler
Ulaanbaatar: Chariot->Chariot
Hovd: Chariot->Chariot

Turn 6 (630 BC)
I have one chariot coming in next turn so I hold ONE more turn on acquiring HBR.
Settle Tosontsengel on Korean island. Who NAMES these?: Warrior (vetoable -- I think it might be required if Korea gets uppity)
Did I mention the galley didn't sink? We meet the Chosogabe. They are up Math and HBR, but down Code of Laws! They have 82 gold, 5 wines and 11 cities (including the capital)
I know I'm taking a risk that they'll get CoL between turns, but I want that last chariot. HBR is cheap anyway.
Hit enter.

IBT:
Darhan: Chariot->Galley
Tsetserleg: Galley->Worker

Turn 7 (610 BC)

I call up Morichika San of the Chosogabe. He gives up HBR, Math AND 88 gold for Code of Laws. For those following at home, the Chosogabe are already annoyed with us. They appear to be a Japanese offshoot, MIL/REG with Samurai.

Tsetserleg Galley finds out how differential naval movement sucks in these straits. 2 moves/turn.
Spend 260 gold upgrading 13 chariots to Gospodar. We still have 1764 at +59gpt. I had chariots out of place, which may cost me a turn or so on the war-front. I suspect I'll be polite and set it up for the next player to declare.

Note that I have NOT sold Math to the Koreans or Baekje. I plan to use it to get Alliances against the Han so we don't get dogpiled.

IBT: Chosogabe asks my galley to move along.
Missed a riot in Almarikh (I moved a chariot out to help control other parts, and screwed this up.)

Turn 8 (590 BC)

Horses (Gospodar) start moving west. Trying to get the rest upgraded -- Almarikh back under control.
A barb galley threatens the galley -- I ignore it moving along. If it attacks, we live or we die. :shrug:
I have lost my chance to sell Mathematics. I'm sorry. Given the Han now have 400 gold, I can guess who sold it.

IBT:
Barb galley attacks and loses, redlining but promoting our galley.
Mandalgovi: Galley->Barracks (vetoable -- we could build cats, or warriors for MP duty as easily)
Baruun-Urt rebels because AGAIN I moved units after checking happiness.
Baekje complete The Great Lighthouse. How kind!

Turn 9 (570 BC)

Mandalgovian galley passes through Tosontsengel to head around the Korean coastline.
Settle Atlay on the NE coast.: Warrior

IBT: Baekje complain about a Galley. Lighten up. Another barb galley blocks our passage north. Dang.
KK: Settler->Settler
Tabriz: Galley->Warrior
Dalandzadgaddadavida: Gospodar->Gospodar
Ereen: Galley->Worker

Turn 10 (550 BC)

I turn lux up to 30% to free horsemen for the front. Might be possible to lower that again with a few MP. Costs us 13 gpt, but we still make 54.
Our galley attacks the barb and wins, but is redlined again.
Our south galley crosses another shallow point and sees purple borders! No idea who.

PASS-DOWN NOTES

I have 8 horsemen outside Canton. There are another 8 in Batshireet that can reach Nanking. You can start war when you feel lucky.

I have a settler 3 SW of Choyr, and planned to settle right there. There's a warrior nearby to help defend it. Another settler just left KK. I think it should be used to re-found after we raze Nanking.

There are two galleys in the north - I thought one could head East past Baekje's capital, and the other North around a new island (uncolonized apparently) -- Watch out, there are barb galleys all over up here. Might be better to go back and heal.

Another galley is heading east along the south shore of Korea, and one West past South Han. The final galley just discovered Purple, but no contact yet.

There's an idle worker near Choybalsan who was heading to help the Han slave all alone near Atlay (result of a mis-move by me)

While we're ready to ATTACK Han, we have no defense.. Our northeastern cities are completely undefended. There is a bowman near Tabriz that was heading as preventative defense.

All my builds are vetoable, no ego here!

If I did anything odd, please tell me! I know I have a lot to learn.

(ASIDE to Alan: Sure you can reduce it to 0 pop. Bring it to 2, build a settler and if the city has 0 or negative food growth, you will be given the option to abandon, and get the settler. Same with worker at size 1)

Edit: Fixed formatting.

 

[Grunthex]

I actually managed one screenshot, to show off our amazing galley's explorations!

Thought from after-- we need a harbor somewhere, to trade for Baekje luxuries. (Dyes)

 

[DJMGator13]

Grunthex sounds like you set me up nicely to battle the Hans .

Don't forget to upload the save file.

 

[Karasu]

Nicely played good setup, nice trading.

Wow. Never having played one of these, it's shocking how much changes between plays.

It's -always- a strange feeling, isn't it? I like it, though

On his way out of Han territory, scout confirms Tsingtao is road-linked to the capital.

This means that we will most likely face a few Swordsmen. Will it be possible to send a wandering Horse to disconnect, possibly after taking Canton, it or is it too far away?

IBT: Wu-Ti of Han wants 100 gold. It's just a bit too early -- I cave in.

Wisely done

Galley heads due south, and SEES coast, but doesn't make it. Cross fingers.

This is one of the most breathtaking part in turnlogs. I valiantly resisted the tempation to scroll down and peek the galley's destiny...

Settle Tosontsengel on Korean island. Who NAMES these?

I told you!

I call up Morichika San of the Chosogabe. He gives up HBR, Math AND 88 gold for Code of Laws.

Well done again!

Baekje complete The Great Lighthouse. How kind!

Now this may be a problem. Can they make contact with Chosogabe with the Lighthouse extra movement? It would be really nice to keep a monopoly on contacts for a while (that is, until Korea and Baekje exist ).

Baekje are becoming serious candidates as our next target, in my opinion...

Dalandzadgaddadavida: Gospodar->Gospodar

See?

While we're ready to ATTACK Han, we have no defense.. Our northeastern cities are completely undefended. There is a bowman near Tabriz that was heading as preventative defense.

Yes, we may want to build another bowman or two, but I wouldn't build defensive units.
A few horseman to patrol our northern-northwestern border should be enough to counter the Han's retaliation.

 

[Karasu]

Ops. The roster (sorry for the double post).

- DJMGator13: UP (as soon as Grunthex remembers to upload the save... )
- Mistfit: getting ready
- AlanH
- Nikof (out till the 28th)
- Karasu
- Grunthex: done

 

[AlanH]

While we're ready to ATTACK Han, we have no defense.. Our northeastern cities are completely undefended.

The Han will be too busy at home once our horses get in there. Take out their nearest cities and they'll never come near us.

 

[Mistfit]

Good turns Grunthex. It looks like I will have mop up duties for the Han. Question for the GoldWingers: Looking at Grunthex's turn log would you have started the war earlier, If so when. I have the problem of overestimating the amount of units needed to go to war.

 

[mad-bax]

Just because I like ancient warfare....

For me, the question is not how many units I need for war. It is the rate of production of offensive units versus the rate at which cities will be attacked and the rate of deterioration of your attack force.

At this point, most towns will be defended by a single reg spear, and the AI will pop rush another before you attack. It will take 2 turns to get from one city to the next and you have to leave one unit behind as a garrison. It will require 5 horses to capture a city. So, you need to be able to get one new unit to the frontline every turn in order to be unit neutral (assuming losses of 1 per town). This can be done partly by production, and partly by moving existing garrisons from your core to replace garrisons in newly acquired cities.

Where you start the campaign with more units than that required to capture the first city, then production can be lower if you are willing to accept gradual degradation of your army.

Also the use of fast units increases survivability because of the retreat ability. This also reduces the rate of production required to sustain a war. Swords are strong but the rate of attrition is higher. This is why elite players almost exclusively play with fast units.

So -- if during a war you find that the number of units you have is increasing, then you began the war later than you needed to. If you find the number of units decreasing, then you need to work out how many units you will have when attacking the final city, and make sure it will be enough.

You may have to recalculate for capital cities and cities with wonders in then as these may be more heavily defended and will need more units to deal with. The point at which you tackle these towns needs to be planned to be at a point where you will have enough units.

 

[Grunthex]

Ops. The roster (sorry for the double post).

- DJMGator13: UP (as soon as Grunthex remembers to upload the save... )
- Grunthex: done

Oh, CRAP. I knew I'd forget something, and here I am at work again. I'll see if I can get home at lunch to give Gator something to play with (otherwise it'll be mid-evening his time before I get there)

 

[Grunthex]

The Save! Plus some filler text.

 

[Mistfit]

Thanks MB - I just would like to get a clarification on one thing though: If you had 5 units that you felt would be enough to take the 1st city and enough production out of your core to replace 1 or preferably 2 units per turn to replenish your casualties. You would feel confident going to war. Am I getting this straight?

Should we be using one of our unit pumps to make less expensive units (warriors) for garrison purposes? or do we just stick the horses in the cities after we capture them?

 

[nikof]

Hi from Frederic, Wisconsin. (It's small. Bonus points for finding it on a map. )

Mad-bax is a sneaky man:

If a civ has galleys it must also have map making. I have not given any civs galleys, nor have I removed the requirement for map-making in order to build galleys.

I should have noted this before I left - have a look at the Civopedia entries for Baejke and Korea. Ancient Sea Power, I think. Read that trait! No - the civs don't get galleys. But they get junks with writing, and iirc their units move as if they already have the lighthouse! This may not be a big problem now that we're water-mobile, but we should be prepared for the possibility that the other civs are snapping up the long-range contacts. 'Course, they'd have to be smart to do that...

Looks like the game's going great! :livesvicariouslythroughothers:
Y'all have a good time kicking some Han, and see you soon.

nikof

p.s. I did my first palace-jump recently. Wasn't too onerous, and seems like a good skill to have in the toolkit...

 

[mad-bax]

The civilopeadia is your friend. Zagnut spent lots and lots of time updating it. You 'd be surprised what you might find.

 

[AlanH]

Thanks MB - I just would like to get a clarification on one thing though: If you had 5 units that you felt would be enough to take the 1st city and enough production out of your core to replace 1 or preferably 2 units per turn to replenish your casualties. You would feel confident going to war. Am I getting this straight?

Should we be using one of our unit pumps to make less expensive units (warriors) for garrison purposes? or do we just stick the horses in the cities after we capture them?

That would make for a slow war. You also have to take account of the time to get the replacements to the front, the healing time for units wounded in the first attack and the time to get to the second city. I would normally not go up against a civ the size of the Han with fewer than 12-15 units. I prefer decisive battles, at least in the first phase, with enough units at the front to cope with the initial (usually only) counter-attack. After you've broken the civ's backbone you can afford to let troops recover and replenish.

Note also m-b's point about having a stronger force for the capital. I maintain we should go for Beijing early, while we have a strong force.

I don't like building more warriors - we already have quite a lot of them. Horses are going to be our main attack force for a while, and we should continue to build them. Once we have secured our continent we don't need a strong garrison. A small number of fast units can defeat any puny invasion force the AI throws at us from off shore.

 

[mad-bax]

Thanks MB - I just would like to get a clarification on one thing though: If you had 5 units .... You would feel confident going to war. Am I getting this straight?

Depends on the level. At deity, each city might have 2 spears and 2 archers. Then you need maybe 6 or 7 horses and your stack will face attack between turns. As I say, you have to judge the rate of losses, versus the rate of production. The only way to do that is to play lots of games. About a year ago I just kept playing random maps to 1000BC. Every night a different one. Gradually I got to know what each AI town would have in it and whether I could take the city or not. No combat calculators or stuff like that. Just genuine experience. Of course my game after 1000BC is rubbish. But the first 80 turns determine your score pretty much. This is wht cracker chose that time period over which to base the QSC Challenge.

Should we be using one of our unit pumps to make less expensive units (warriors) for garrison purposes? or do we just stick the horses in the cities after we capture them?

Not in my opinion. Leave the towns empty. Lower unit costs, fewer shields tied up doing nothing. Every shield, bale of hay and gold piece is an investment. And each one should give a return. When you reach the end of the game, how many warriors and spears do you have in cities that have never moved a muscle, had an enemy unit within 50 tiles of it. And yet the effort you went to to build that unit at the beginning of the game was immense, and you have been paying for him ever since. Of course.. you need a garrison in your settler pumps and worker pumps because they have high pops and you don't want to have to move sliders for one or two cities. This is fine, since the garrison has a job. In this case, the garrison would normally be a spear, since it's upgrade path leads to mech infantry.

When you capture cities - well you might heal the odd horse in them - depends on the flip risk. Normally I would just walk the warriors and the odd spear out of the core (which will never be in any kind of danger) and give these guys a job quelling resistors. This leaves the horses to do their job, and when you get the odd flip, well you lose a warrior. So what? It's just saved you 1gpt.

 

[DJMGator13]

My official got it.

Nice job Grunthex, I was worried that you had staged our troops in Han territory, but you have not. You also got the scout out of there as well. This will help preserve our reputation when we declare war.

We have 16 Gospodar ready to go, this will kick off our GA (correct?), which will llow us to build more reinforcements quickly. Since the upgrade we are now "Strong" against everyone. Since we are strong I do not think we will get "dogpiled" by the other civs.

It will be interesting to see which iron the Han hooked up. If they did the one by Tatung we will probably cut it off with the capture of Canton.

Since the Han definately have contact with other civs (the 400 gold gain reported confirms this) we need to be careful about breaking any peace deals we make with them, to protect our rep.

I'll play later tonight or in the AM.