Killing upgraded RedCoats

[Ronin228]

England just declared war on me for no reason, and my armies were occupied with two other wars going on. Now I have to deal a squad or redcoats camping outside of a boarder city getting ready to invade. I've saved the game and then tried to attack them with cavalry and riflement, but they keep fending off my attack and then sit there and heal. Any advice on killing these bastards? I'm now making it my goal to raze every city Elizabeth owns!!!

 

[Pantastic]

Why are you attacking them? Fortify up in a town, the AI loves to throw huge stacks at fortified defenders. Definately don't attack if you don't have enough units to win, that just gives them promotions for free. Redcoats are nasty, the only way to beat them in their own era is with collateral damage and/or superior numbers, so get cranking on cats/cannon to weaken a stack. Start researching assembly line, infantry are better than redcoats (though not good enough to just walk through them).

BTW, she didn't declare war for no reason; she declared because your "armies were occupied with two other wars going on". It's very important not to be weak when you're next to someone in their UU era, after you get caught a time or two like that you'll start to know who has the nasty UUs and when.

 

[Zherak_Khan]

Beeline for Cannons. Attack with Grenadiers with Pinch. Superior numbers is a must.

 

[Tunder]

If you look at the Power graph, she probably declared was because your Power rating had gone down during your wars.

Since I am in the middle of a game playing Elizabeth..."Just try and take all my cities, you non-English dog!" Or something like that. In my game Napolean decided to attack me just as I finished learning steel for cannons to go with my redcoats. Foolish. Trying to take my cities with Knights...

I promote my Redcoats with Pinch as fast as possible, so they end up countering grenadiers really well. And I'm bee-lining straight for Infantry and then artillery too. So unless you are sure you are going to overtake her in technology, you may be in for a tough time.

Build lots of cannons and be prepared to lose them. If you let England get their UU, then you left them alone for too long. If I am remebering right, they get 25% bonus against both gunpowder and horsey units. When they have Pinch promotion too plus a medic unit in the stack and fortified...can you say "impacted wisdom tooth"?

 

[Ronin228]

It's ironic because I'm playing America as well, and here comes my neighbor, the English, trying to make me hail the king. I think she's pissed because the last time she attacked me I took over one of her cities and razed another. I asked for peace once I saw the RedCoat unit apear in London.

 

[Naismith]

It's ironic because I'm playing America as well, and here comes my neighbor, the English, trying to make me hail the king. I think she's pissed because the last time she attacked me I took over one of her cities and razed another. I asked for peace once I saw the RedCoat unit apear in London.

Maybe you realized it at the time, but: If you couldn't take her then and finish her off, you should have made her your absolute #1 priority. She's pissed, she has her UU, so that was not the time to get involved in any other war(s). Even if you asked for peace, you should have beelined for any nearby techs, and focused primarily on building units to deal with redcoats. Once the peace treaty expired, or ASAP afterwards, you should have attacked and crippled her very badly at the very least, and preferably, taken her out completely.

Circumstances may not have allowed for it, but you needed to realize that she would take any opportunities that came up. The moral of the story is, don't ever, ever, ever leave a pissed off neighbor in any kind of shape to attack you again. If you don't kill them off, leave them with so little that they can never be a threat to anyone again.

 

[Nares]

I know it was said earlier, but recognizing the threat of a leader's current or future UU is almost as important as recognizing more direct threats.

For example, and it's not evident in the current ALC, but if you're playing as Egypt, and you end up near Mansa Musa, Alexander, Cyrus or either Khan (arguably Monetzuma as well), then the probability for success with a War Chariot rush is greatly diminished.

Likewise, if you find yourself near Tokugawa, you want to either fight him before he can produce Samurai (Macemen), or after Samurai are obsolete (prior to Samurai is generally safer).

Civs with late game UUs, such as America or Germany, are much less a threat than civs with early and mid game UUs in terms of such rogue attacks (though they generally make up for it with average or above average traits).

Similarly, if you find that Mansa Musa, Alexander, Cyrus or either Khan is on the opposite side of the landmass from you, you're probably safe from them making potent use of their UU.

As well, some midgame UUs are less than spectacular. Musketeers, for example, are the same strength as Musketmen (the unit they replace). Both units are, essentially, Midieval units, despite arriving at the beginning of the Renaissance era. They're generally considered weak because they are quickly made obsolete.

 

[Sisiutil]

Once you saw that first Redcoat appear, you should have gone after Lizzy with all you had. As other posters have said, if you let a nearby civ get their mid/late game UU, you've left them alive too long. But if Liz just got Redcoats, it was time to finish her off before she could build too many, not sue for peace--because look what's happening now.

Cannons and Grenadiers. That's what you need now, and lots of them.

 

[Ronin228]

She hates peace, every time we declare peace she attacks me after 10 turns. Earlier in the game I had beelined for Industrialization (which ever tech gives Navy SEALS). We, right after I got some SEALs built, she attacked again. Stupid move, I got Rome to declare war on her and invaded her a huge stack of SEALs. She isn't going to survive this one!

 

[The Tyrant]

The moral of the story is, don't ever, ever, ever leave a pissed off neighbor in any kind of shape to attack you again. If you don't kill them off, leave them with so little that they can never be a threat to anyone again.

"And let it here be noted that men are either to be kindly treated or utterly crushed, since they can revenge lighter injuries, but not heavy ones. The injury we do to a man should leave no fear of reprisals." -- Machiavelli

Once you saw that first Redcoat appear, you should have gone after Lizzy with all you had.

I agree. Indeed, that first redcoat was a sign to sue for peace -- with anyone else you were fighting.

 

[aelf]

As well, some midgame UUs are less than spectacular. Musketeers, for example, are the same strength as Musketmen (the unit they replace). Both units are, essentially, Midieval units, despite arriving at the beginning of the Renaissance era. They're generally considered weak because they are quickly made obsolete.

You haven't seen a bunch of Musketeers with Combat V or Combat IV and March. These things can take cities defended by longbows real quickly with a few sacrificial rookies and no catapults.

And these are not all I had. Before the cavalry came along they were doing well on their own.

 

[Pantastic]

You're right aelf, I've never seen the AI get a bunch of any unit type to combat IV/V and use them in any sensible way. IMO musketeers are a human player only UU, they're useless to the AI but a human can plan and use them effectively. If you're in a MP game then you'll want to watch for Napoleon going for an early rush to gunpowder and doing something nasty with musketeers (especially if the person picked Nappy instead of getting him randomly), but if you're just watching AIs then you can treat him as having no UU.

 

[aelf]

You're right aelf, I've never seen the AI get a bunch of any unit type to combat IV/V and use them in any sensible way. IMO musketeers are a human player only UU, they're useless to the AI but a human can plan and use them effectively. If you're in a MP game then you'll want to watch for Napoleon going for an early rush to gunpowder and doing something nasty with musketeers (especially if the person picked Nappy instead of getting him randomly), but if you're just watching AIs then you can treat him as having no UU.

Happy to see that there are people who don't just look at raw strength to judge a unit's usefulness. Musketeers have no hard counter, have two moves and get defensive bonuses, making Knights quite useless for Napoleon (who gets a free Combat I with the former). A sacrificial Musketeer may be more costly than two cats, but think of the speed at which you can conquer. If each city is defended by 2-3 longbows and 1 pikeman (a well-defended AI city aside from the capital), 4 sacrificial rookies (you can make that a few more sacrificial/withdrawing HAs) and 4 veterans can take over the city without having to wait for slow cats and bombardment (more than double the speed). If the veterans have march and you throw in one medic explorer, Napoleon's early Muskets will give you the keys to your neighbours' houses in a flash.

The only catch is you have to have good production, but cheap forges and drafting should help. Get your cats to help with the tougher cities and you won't run into much WW before the enemy is destroyed and the war is over.

You can then skip Chemistry and bee-line to MT. When you get cavalry, the Musketeers are still not obsolette. A Combat V Musket is almost as strong as a Rifleman at 13.5 strength. You can use these to defend newly captured cities or even attack as usual. You wouldn't want slow grenades until the enemy gets rifles.

 

[Nares]

Happy to see that there are people who don't just look at raw strength to judge a unit's usefulness.

And Combat IV/March or Combat V comes straight out the gate, huh.

Perhaps I am underestimating them to an extent. But those are some mighty promotions there that go way beyond the base usefulness of the unit.

 

[pigswill]

Basic moral is don't half attack an enemy. You also seem to get a lot of negatives for razing a city.
You could maybe have tried pillaging in force, you may not be able to stop Liz building redcoats but you can stop her building so many. Stack of cavalry to pillage and grenadiers (with pinch) and cannon to defend the pillagers from the redcoats.
Musketeers certainly sound more useful than musketmen (but then again they are a UU so should be). 5 promotions will of course help any unit become special.

 

[Older than Dirt]

I find musketmen to be very useful - in Civ 2. In Civ 4 it is extremely rare that I build one. Chemistry is usually just around the bend, if not the next discovery. How could you build and promote many musketmen to level 4 before they become obsolete with the advent of grenadiers who are effective quite late in the game when used en mass.

 

[Naismith]

I find musketmen to be very useful - in Civ 2. In Civ 4 it is extremely rare that I build one. Chemistry is usually just around the bend, if not the next discovery. How could you build and promote many musketmen to level 4 before they become obsolete with the advent of grenadiers who are effective quite late in the game when used en mass.

I suspect people that love musketeers play mainly on marathon speed, so it lasts alot longer. They are complete crap on normal speed, IMHO. However, I think people generally underestimate the utility and power of extra movement.

 

[aelf]

I play on Epic. Musketeers can gain promotions quickly. If you get them early, they will outclass the medieval units they face. With Agressive and Theocracy, they can begin with Combat II right off the bat. From there, you only need to choose your targets wisely and plan how you attack. Two movement points mean they can hit enemies quickly and move on to fight somewhere else. Of course, you should throw in an explorer medic to shorten heal times.

There's little chance that a one-move unit of the time can gain promotions as quickly, and mounted units are easy to counter. The only thing that rivals them in this respect is the Conquistador, but there's no way (short of using a mod) that these can enjoy the Aggressive advantage.

 

[Naismith]

I play on Epic. Musketeers can gain promotions quickly. If you get them early, they will outclass the medieval units they face. With Agressive and Theocracy, they can begin with Combat II right off the bat. From there, you only need to choose your targets wisely and plan how you attack. Two movement points mean they can hit enemies quickly and move on to fight somewhere else. Of course, you should throw in an explorer medic to shorten heal times.

There's little chance that a one-move unit of the time can gain promotions as quickly, and mounted units are easy to counter. The only thing that rivals them in this respect is the Conquistador, but there's no way (short of using a mod) that these can enjoy the Aggressive advantage.

I'll have to take them out for a test drive.

 

[aelf]

Good luck. It won't be easy. You have to find the right way to get there quickly. I did it with a CS slingshot. The scientist way is possible. You can burn a GS on Education and should arrive at about the same time.

It was an emperor game and I managed to out tech the other AIs, killing only one neighbour with axemen in the beginning, so it would definitely work on lower difficulties.