Kosovo and Crimea

[dutchfire]

Hi CFC OT!

Can you explain to me the differences between the situation in the Crimea today and the situation in Kosovo prior to the Kosovo war? Is the wish for Crimean independence (/association with Russia) more or less legitimate than the Kosovar wish for independence? ?

 

[Glassmage]

Doesn't matter hon, Poland is next.

 

[useless]

Going by Putin's logic, Albania should start sending troops into Kosovo, since there's a large population of Albanian's in it, to protect them.

 

[kramerfan86]

Im not going to comment on how just Kosovo is, but the big difference would be the lack of an actual war. Ukraine had taken exactly 0 military action against Crimea or the russian minority whereas in Kosovo there was significant bloodshed between Serbia and Kosovo.

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

It is possible the Ukrainians would have though.

The Russians have eliminated any possibility of that though.

 

[uppi]

It is possible the Ukrainians would have though.

The Russians have eliminated any possibility of that though.

The cynic in me says that the Russians could have saved themselves a lot of trouble if they had waited until more people had died in clashes in the Crimea.

 

[Dachs]

The cynic in me says that the Russians could have saved themselves a lot of trouble if they had waited until more people had died in clashes in the Crimea.

Which indicates that the Russian government didn't believe it could rely on the possibility of such clashes breaking out in the first place.

 

[Srdjan]

Im not going to comment on how just Kosovo is, but the big difference would be the lack of an actual war. Ukraine had taken exactly 0 military action against Crimea or the russian minority whereas in Kosovo there was significant bloodshed between Serbia and Kosovo.

Yes. There is no much similarities with Kosovo case. Only similarity here, is that Russia acts just like USA prior to "intervention" in Yugoslavia.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Yes. There is no much similarities with Kosovo case. Only similarity here, is that Russia acts just like USA prior to "intervention" in Yugoslavia.

It hasn't started bombing Ukraine to Stone Age (yet) though.

 

[Tahuti]

Can you explain to me the differences between the situation in the Crimea today and the situation in Kosovo prior to the Kosovo war? Is the wish for Crimean independence (/association with Russia) more or less legitimate than the Kosovar wish for independence? ?

The difference is that Kosovo was placed under international jurisdiction, Crimea isn't. Other than that, Kosovo's independence, like Crimea's, is based largely on bollocks. In the case of Kosovo, it was agreed by international treaties that Serbian security forces were to be allowed entry into UNMIK controlled territory (which was de-jure recognised as part of Serbia and still is) which the international authorities prevented from happening.

 

[Evie]

If an internationally (as in: not Russian-run) supervised referendum showed that Crimea et al want to break away from Ukraine, then as far as I'm concerned they have a right to do so. And if a later referendum and agreement between this separate region of ex-Ukraine and Russia involve Crimea joining Russia, then power to Crimea.

The land, ultimately, belong to the people who live on it. Not to some geopolitical contraption that has no right in and of itself save that which it derives from its people.

In the meantime, until such a time as a referendum can be organised, any policing to avoid conflicts and protect any stray threatened minority should go to an actual third party, preferably a country that has little national stake in the conflict (Read: not you, Russia).

 

[DemonicAppleGuY]

Which indicates that the Russian government didn't believe it could rely on the possibility of such clashes breaking out in the first place.

Definitely possible.

In the end it may not matter though because it's pretty clear there is nothing anyone will do to stop the Russians.

The Americans aren't going to do anything.

The Europeans are going to do even less.

RUSSIA IS BACK!

 

[ParkCungHee]

Which indicates that the Russian government didn't believe it could rely on the possibility of such clashes breaking out in the first place.

Alternatively, it could indicate that the Russian government vastly overestimated the danger of such clashes.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Definitely possible.

In the end it may not matter though because it's pretty clear there is nothing anyone will do to stop the Russians.

The Americans aren't going to do anything.

The Europeans are going to do even less.

RUSSIA IS BACK!

DUN... DUN... DUN!

Can't let a good image go to waste.

 

[Kyriakos]

Actually Russia did far less obnoxious stuff in the Crimea (although it did invade, which is always scary and horrible) than US/UK/Nato did against Serbia so as to muscle it to give up Kosovo. Russia did not have months and months of a bombing campaign against Ukraine, for starters.

The end result will be different too. Obviously there won't be a period of "peacekeeping" in Crimea (like the farse in Kosovo), and instead it will become independent/linked to Russia far sooner.

In my view the 1999 bombing of Serbia was a lot worse than this invasion by Russia, for many reasons, including that Russia has a large minority there, it borders that land, Crimea was part of it even in half of the soviet era, they did not bomb Ukraine, and probably there won't be a war between Russia and Ukraine either.

 

[Yeekim]

If an internationally (as in: not Russian-run) supervised referendum showed that Crimea et al want to break away from Ukraine, then as far as I'm concerned they have a right to do so. And if a later referendum and agreement between this separate region of ex-Ukraine and Russia involve Crimea joining Russia, then power to Crimea.

The land, ultimately, belong to the people who live on it. Not to some geopolitical contraption that has no right in and of itself save that which it derives from its people.

In the meantime, until such a time as a referendum can be organised, any policing to avoid conflicts and protect any stray threatened minority should go to an actual third party, preferably a country that has little national stake in the conflict (Read: not you, Russia).

I don't think anyone would disagree (except the Tartars, possibly?). However, Russian actions indicate Putin had no plans of leaving such an important decision in untrustworthy hands of Crimean people. They might have chosen to continue being autonomous republic within Ukraine, after all.

 

[Evie]

Indeed.

Crimean people have a right to chose their way. But chosing your own way and Vladimir chosing your way? Two things.

 

[Winner]

Two things:

1) I continue to think that separating Kosovo from Serbia de iure was an imbecilic and utterly hypocritical decision that will haunt us (the West) for decades. Especially since the local Serbs are now basically being treated the same as Albanians were treated under Miloševič, but all of a sudden we maintain that they can't separate and rejoin Serbia.

The right solution was to pacify Kosovo and wait until Serbia was sufficiently democratic for it to be able to manage Kosovo as an autonomous region again.

2) That being said, Miloševič and his regime have committed war crimes in Kosovo (along with the KLA) and some intervention was necessary. In Crimea, nobody has even attempted any violence or repression against local Russians. The region was pretty calm and orderly; the case for the Russian invasion is NON-EXISTENT, it's an overt and premeditated power-grab by Putin. There is no analogy between the Russian invasion of Crimea and NATO intervention in Kosovo, none whatsoever.

 

[Kyriakos]

Indeed.

Crimean people have a right to chose their way. But chosing your own way and Vladimir chosing your way? Two things.

Most of them are Russian. It is not at all unlikely they are fine with this development. Moreso after the violence in the revolutions and riots in the non-Russian parts.

But yeah, i suppose it was the Iraqis who decided for the war against Sadam, as well as the Libyans for the war against their own colonel, the Egyptians against the islamic party, the Syrians against Assad, the list is literally endless

@Winner: Nato killed many people in Serbia, during its many months long bombing campaign. Supposedly they wanted to invade as well, but feared massive casualties.
By contrast, Russia did not bomb anything, and neither did it leave its majority Russian populated areas.

Of course both events are dangerous, and horrible. But, as usual, your double standard is easy to see :\

 

[Evie]

I was against Iraq when it began, I remained against it throughout, and I am still against it.

As for Libya, Syria: If the Ukraine government start engaging in massive armed repression against its own people, then heck yeah, Putin has every right to intervene. And I'd cheer him for doing so.

But you don't intervene in a sovereign country because people MIGHT want you to intervene and because the government MIGHT repress them. That's idiotic warmonering, the same kind of reasoning that led to Iraq, and by trying to justify Putin's actions that way you are showing a great deal of hypocrisy.

"The Russian people in Ukraine might very well welcome Putin" does NOT excuse an intervention.
"The Russian people in Ukraine have asked Putin to come in." does (and we're talking, again, some sort of referendum: a will of the masses)

"The Ukrainian government might repress the Russians" does NOT excuse an intervention.
"The Ukrainian government is repressing the Russians" does.