Puck Nutty
Prince
Well, Lance could have stayed clean and retired without millions of dollars and no titles.
On the other hand, after doping, he still has no titles but does have tens of millions of dollars.
So, maybe worth it?
Lance Armstrong - proof cheaters always win
- Thread starter Neomega
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Well, Lance could have stayed clean and retired without millions of dollars and no titles.
On the other hand, after doping, he still has no titles but does have tens of millions of dollars.
So, maybe worth it?
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Only if one values money above all other things.
And its still up in the air as to how much this will cost him fiscally.
And its still up in the air as to how much this will cost him fiscally.
Puck Nutty
Prince
Well, I'd like to think I wouldn't cheat if I were in his place, but who knows? Fame, wealth and glory can be a heady cocktail.
Anyway, from what I've been reading about him he seems to be the kind of person who just can't settle for second best. Kind of tragic, really.
Anyway, from what I've been reading about him he seems to be the kind of person who just can't settle for second best. Kind of tragic, really.
warpus
In pork I trust
While that's true, it was my understanding that those 10% just never win anything.. or at least the vast majority of them don't.
Now, that could be very well wrong, but if it isn't.. then I find Armstrong's doping very understandable. He wanted to excel in his sport and use all the same tools that his competitors were using. I would have probably done the same thing if the culture of the sport was "Everyone's doing it, the authorities either can't stop us or don't want to, and here's how you can get started" and it was my life's dream to excel in that sport (or a field in terms of a career or whatever)
Obviously there's a line - I wouldn't kill babies or do anything that was too harmful to my body or immoral to some degree I agreed with.. but if I graduated from school, showed up at my first job, and everyone in the office was taking an hour lunch even though they're only supposed to get half an hour - I would take an hour lunch too.
All of course assuming that most professional cyclists who win things dope. If that's not true, then my post is irrelevant.
Thanks for the honest reflection of your soul.
Core Imposter
Deity
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Thirty-five, forty years ago my Dad was building residential homes on spec. When he would go to sell them, of course, the banks were loaning 80%, buyers would say, I'd like to buy from you but I don't have the downpayment.
John Contractor over there says he can get me in the house for 10%, why can't you. And of course, the deal was, they would go to the closing and lie, the contractor would say, yes, the buyer paid me XXX dollars, the banker would nod and wink, and they'd close the deal. Everybody was doing it. That was the justification.
So John Contractor and the bankers got rich, and my Dad ended up leaving that aspect of contracting. And never got rich.
Thats moral hazard. And everyone slid down the slope and the housing market was destroyed. But alot of people made a lot of money and got away with it. Cheaters don't always win but a lot of winners cheat.
Me? I am a proud son.
Let me go Paul Harvey, and tell the rest of the story.
In my own career, I found myself as an employee and taught to "cut corners" in various ways and yeah, I did it. For a number of years I never really questioned it. I have no excuse. Everyone was doing it.
Then, a couple of incidents happened and made it pretty clear that these acts did have consequences and people were affected. And it became clear that I was on a collision course with the point where clearly unethical would have crossed into illegality. And, at that point I pulled back.
My career diverged with others who ended up very, very wealthy. But some of them suffered ruined lives and one in particular is under investigation as I type this. Because once you reach that point where you know you've gone over the line, and you get away with it, the tendency is to just go further. People get arrogant. Like Armstrong. He is in reality, contemptuous of us all.
Well, whatever. I turned out to be a poor pirate. Not the end of the world. I made a choice I can live with.
Watching Armstrong and Oprah on Oprah.com.
Very interesting stuff.
Armstrong is a psychopath.
Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/[1][2] is a personality disorder that has been variously characterized by shallow emotions (including reduced fear, a lack of empathy, and stress tolerance), coldheartedness, egocentricity, superficial charm, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, impulsivity, criminality, antisocial behavior, a lack of remorse, and a parasitic lifestyle.
John Contractor over there says he can get me in the house for 10%, why can't you. And of course, the deal was, they would go to the closing and lie, the contractor would say, yes, the buyer paid me XXX dollars, the banker would nod and wink, and they'd close the deal. Everybody was doing it. That was the justification.
So John Contractor and the bankers got rich, and my Dad ended up leaving that aspect of contracting. And never got rich.
Thats moral hazard. And everyone slid down the slope and the housing market was destroyed. But alot of people made a lot of money and got away with it. Cheaters don't always win but a lot of winners cheat.
Me? I am a proud son.
Let me go Paul Harvey, and tell the rest of the story.
In my own career, I found myself as an employee and taught to "cut corners" in various ways and yeah, I did it. For a number of years I never really questioned it. I have no excuse. Everyone was doing it.
Then, a couple of incidents happened and made it pretty clear that these acts did have consequences and people were affected. And it became clear that I was on a collision course with the point where clearly unethical would have crossed into illegality. And, at that point I pulled back.
My career diverged with others who ended up very, very wealthy. But some of them suffered ruined lives and one in particular is under investigation as I type this. Because once you reach that point where you know you've gone over the line, and you get away with it, the tendency is to just go further. People get arrogant. Like Armstrong. He is in reality, contemptuous of us all.
Well, whatever. I turned out to be a poor pirate. Not the end of the world. I made a choice I can live with.
Watching Armstrong and Oprah on Oprah.com.
Very interesting stuff.
Armstrong is a psychopath.
Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəθi/[1][2] is a personality disorder that has been variously characterized by shallow emotions (including reduced fear, a lack of empathy, and stress tolerance), coldheartedness, egocentricity, superficial charm, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, impulsivity, criminality, antisocial behavior, a lack of remorse, and a parasitic lifestyle.
I am sure some of the women in Oprah's audience are tearing up right now, and thinking he is a great guy.
I personally don't have the stomach to watch people fall for the charade of an admitted master liar.
Yes, one way or another. The costs of playing by the rules are extremely high. The costs of cheating, even if caught, are nowhere near as high and come with massive potential payoffs.
Core Imposter
Deity
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I dunno, the guy I was talking about earlier may very well end up in Federal prison and when he gets out, he will be broke and old and unemployable.
Plus this is going to destroy his family.
Don't know the specifics, but more than likely, he was just one of the few that got caught, or stepped on the wrong toes.
nerdfighter13
Prince of the Universe
Lance said that cheating was getting an unfair advantage, when I always thought cheating was breaking the rules.
rugbyLEAGUEfan
Deity
It's only with an extremely narrow at best, most likely an entirely false definition of "winning" can "cheaters always win" be shown to be true.
I think "cheaters never win" is a much easier case to argue.
I think "cheaters never win" is a much easier case to argue.
Borachio
Way past lunacy
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That's interesting. This is pretty much me - especially the parasitic lifestyle.
Can I borrow it for my resumé?
The rest of the post is interesting too. I think everyone realizes they have to make some compromises fairly early on in life. No one can do more than their best in any given circumstance. But many people don't even try.
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
With the US banks, US banks again and now this. What happened to make money but do so honestly.
People became amoral secularists and only interested in free ponies.
Goodfella
Showing results for
I agree. The OP is needlessly cynical. Armstrong is a public disgrace, not a winner.
So Armstrong won a race being doped?
What about number 2-3-4-5 and so on, they're totally clean?
I think every rider back then was doped in one way or another, just single out one person is ok, if you single out all the number 2's and 3's and everybody that earnt some money.
The same in the 80ies, Russian and similar women doing discus or pullshot? in WC, they got away with it.
What about number 2-3-4-5 and so on, they're totally clean?
I think every rider back then was doped in one way or another, just single out one person is ok, if you single out all the number 2's and 3's and everybody that earnt some money.
The same in the 80ies, Russian and similar women doing discus or pullshot? in WC, they got away with it.
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
Of course USA is the birth place of televangelist and mega churches. (by mega I mean rich).
classical_hero
In whom I trust
We see that no matter how hard you try and cover up your misdemeanours, they will always come back to haunt you. We have seen plenty of cases where those who have cheated in one way or another. While cheaters temporarily win, they eventually lose out in the end. We haven't heard the last of what happened to Lance Armstrong. Money that he won and claims he won will have to be paid back, so this will be in the news and don't be surprised that he will have to declare bankruptcy.
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