[LP] Leader Pass: Great Builders - 3/14 Developer Livestream Discussion w/ Potato McWhiskey

[UWHabs]

Yeah the ability itself is fine IMO. It is very much a pro gamer™ ability though. Depending on how it calculates there may be ways to seriously cheese it. For instance, if you use Darwin to pop +2000 science on a 4 hex natural wonder, which in turn grants you your first tech of the era, will you then get +4000 culture or does the bonus only count your per turn science?

Oh man that would be awesome as a cheese.

 

[queenpea]

Re: Ludwig.

Ok, is nobody talking about the elephant in the room? In the dev livestream historical intro for Ludwig they cite him as "a gay man...".
So is this Civ's first openly LGBTQ leader?

There's potentially Alexander, Kristina and the forthcoming (or returning) Elizabeth.
View attachment 656752

Why is it the “elephant in the room”?

I’m really glad they called this out—I have been concerned that the team might diminish aspect of his history, and I wasn’t quite satisfied with how classically masculine he appears and sounds in his character model and voice acting.

Glad they spelled it out for us so clearly in the stream.

I’m a big fan of the intro video format that they included for each leader this time around, and I hope they keep this format for the Rulers of England on the 28th.

 

[blackbutterfly]

Frederick the Great has lead Germany in a number of the previous Civ games. And Alexander has been in every game, who certainly has some compelling evidence.

Fred was gay?

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I'm actually not sure Sejong's ability is quite as boring as it looks. It's not really my vibe, but it looks like it's designed for a certain sort of mini-maxer who will do things like delay getting techs, maxing out science for a particular turn, etc Ala GS bulbing folks from previous games and the like.

It seems a lot like older civ game strategy to me--if you liked working production overflow, etc., you'll like this.

 

[Pitohui]

I’m a big fan of the intro video format that they included for each leader this time around, and I hope they keep this format for the Rulers of England on the 28th.

Definitely the best format so far. Maybe it is a beta test for the Civ VII leader reveals to see what people respond best to?(it's not those 20 second yt shorts with no ability reveal,Firaxis)

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Re: Ludwig.

Ok, is nobody talking about the elephant in the room? In the dev livestream historical intro for Ludwig they cite him as "a gay man...".
So is this Civ's first openly LGBTQ leader?

There's potentially Alexander, Kristina and the forthcoming (or returning) Elizabeth.
View attachment 656752

He's not the first, but he's the first where they acknowledged his sexual orientation. I rather like that no one is scandalized or making a big deal of it... normalization.

 

[queenpea]

Definitely the best format so far. Maybe it is a beta test for the Civ VII leader reveals to see what people respond best to?(it's not those 20 second yt shorts with no ability reveal,Firaxis)

And I don't think we need a week-long period to critique the character models as well as their fashion choices (I'm talking about myself here, who has been aghast--a number of times in these forums--by the drape of a dress or the texture of jewelry). I'm not sure what good is done by revealing the leader models well ahead of the leader abilities.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

And I don't think we need a week-long period to critique the character models as well as their fashion choices (I'm talking about myself here, who has been aghast--a number of times in these forums--by the drape of a dress or the texture of jewelry). I'm not sure what good is done by revealing the leader models well ahead of the leader abilities.

especially how it seems like a few times they might have been earlier versions anyhow.

 

[BigChinggis]

I’m a big fan of the intro video format that they included for each leader this time around, and I hope they keep this format for the Rulers of England on the 28th.

The "did you know" vids are really fun. It reminds me of how they used to include real depictions of the leaders along with their reveals in the early trailers.

I like it a lot.

 

[queenpea]

The "did you know" vids are really fun. It reminds me of how they used to include real depictions of the leaders along with their reveals in the early trailers.

I like it a lot.

Yes, I miss this energy!

It actually makes me want to play a game as America...which isn't a feeling I think I've experienced since I saw this video many years ago.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

Byzantium got hit with the nerf stick (in the form of a new leader).

The other leader (whose name slips my mind - the bloke) is super OP.
Religious victory is like a no-brainer with him.

I disagree. Theodora is an excellent pivot towards a more peaceful, religious, even cultural leader.

Basil is best at domination. Get Crusade. Kill units around their Holy City. Get +3 CS from his leader ability. Kill units around any other city, it flips to your religion, and now you have +10 CS. It's a total domino effect. You don't even really need holy sites with him. Theodora emphasizes more faith and takes advantage of the +3 CS for apostles more so than military units.

If you're by tundra, Desert, or jungle, take the respective pantheons. Get Work Ethic. Get the policy card for double holy site adjacency. Then you can potentially have holy sites with +16 faith, +16 production, and +16 culture. Throw in Hildegard if you can get her for +16 science in a city. You should be able to get at least a few high adjacency sites like that.

And if that's not enough, use farms to fill in the rest. They're +1 each (+2 with the card). You don't even need to get an adjacency pantheon. Get a holy site with two mountains and put three farms next to it. That's +5 basic adjacency, +10 with the card. 10 faith, 10 production, 10 culture. That's a pretty modest, realistic possibility too .

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Yes, I miss this energy!

It actually makes me want to play a game as America...which isn't a feeling I think I've experienced since I saw this video many years ago.

It makes me think about all of the hand wringing over the "fat teddy" model.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

It makes me think about all of the hand wringing over the "fat teddy" model.

He was feeling a little bloated the day they made that First Look. No one warned him

 

[canadamufc]

The "did you know" vids are really fun. It reminds me of how they used to include real depictions of the leaders along with their reveals in the early trailers.

I like it a lot.

I just went and rewatched that video, and I really miss how they did the old First Looks. Firaxis really got the format right with how they published it and the smooth flow of explaining the abilities and showcasing leader models. It got me excited whenever the leader and civilization were revealed and we got the whole package alongside that.

Firaxis should really go back to those ways for Civ VII. No need to change anything, just do it the exact same.

 

[AntSou]

Main Positives:
- I wasn't actually expecting PotatoMcWhiskey in person in the livestream. That was pretty cool of them;
- The short historical introductions (Is that Andrew narrating?) are a good addition. It's great they listened to our suggestions in that regard;
- I am pleasantly surprised by the uniqueness of Ludwig's ability and the potential of such outside the box gameplay this late into Civ 6;
- I think they made it clear we're getting news regarding Civ 7 sooner rather than later (at least I interpreted the intro that way).

Meh or not so positive:
- I'm not a fan of abilities which a) trigger rarely, b) are passive, and c) the AI has no idea how to make use of them. Sejong somehow manages to score on all three . There's only six triggers throughout the game, and there's not much strategy involved in deciding when to trigger a tech from a new era because playing as Korea you're already focused on Science and Seowons, which means your Science is likely to be close to optimal at all times anyway. So it all seems to boil down to "can't forget to slot Rationalism / finish that Seowon before completing the new era tech." It's so dull. Will be looking forward to a rework;

- Theodora's ability is alright. I'll still be looking for something more creative to appear in the workshop though. I like the farms bonus more than the culture to Holy Sites, because it works as extra encouragement to get your population up, which synergises well with a religion-oriented gameplay. Culture from Holy Sites is a bit dull imo (It's strong, of course, but playing as Byzantium you'll probably be able to grab Choral Music).
E.g. +50(+100%?) Tourism from Relics, -25% (-50%?) from other sources. Tourism output from Relics is not diminished by other civilizations who have researched The Enlightenment civic. Gain a Relic upon constructing a Hippodrome.

- Ludwig's agenda is silly and an example of why people get annoyed at the Agenda system. It just feels like random nonsense (doesn't like civs who fill all the District slots, if I understood it correctly).

---

@Kupe Navigator Just wait for a rework. Shouldn't take long.

I think the fact that Ludwig's unfinished wonders do not incur GPT is a missed opportunity. It plays incredibly well into the theme of Ludwig as someone who can bankrupt the entire nation on wonders. Also, trading gold for culture is something incredibly unique, and also well-designed asymmetrical abilities always tend to be well received.

I love that! It literally just needs a gold penalty equivalent to the culture bonus. So you'll still want to spam unfinished wonders, but with a bit more care and strategy.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Fred was gay?

Well, let's see:
Had liaisons with a page and a Prussian officer when he was young, now recognized as homosexual in nature.
As a youth was far more interested in poetry and music than in politics and the military - which infuriated his father, the very model of a modern authoritarian.
had to be succeeded by his nephew because he had no children, legitimate or illigitimate.
had a political marriage, and as soon as the arranger (his father) dies he sent his wife to live in a separate palace and prohibited her from attending his court.

Because he is also Frederick the Great and the model for a soldier-king in German history (and a great favorite image for the Nazis) his sexuality was glossed over for a couple of hundred years, but it's pretty much accepted now.

He was feeling a little bloated the day they made that First Look. No one warned him

- Or he was channeling Robert Taft, his vice-president.

 

[Planktonic]

I disagree. Theodora is an excellent pivot towards a more peaceful, religious, even cultural leader.

...

If you're by tundra, Desert, or jungle, take the respective pantheons. Get Work Ethic. Get the policy card for double holy site adjacency. Then you can potentially have holy sites with +16 faith, +16 production, and +16 culture. Throw in Hildegard if you can get her for +16 science in a city.

She's going to be great at Sci Vic as well. Getting large yields of production, faith and culture from a single district (which is available very early) will allow a city to function as though it were 3 pop greater at least.

Seriously, a +8 HS for her would be like having a +2 TS without needing to build a wonder, with an amphitheater and 2 GWoW (before printing). Massively powerful.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Theodora is an excellent pivot towards a more peaceful, religious, even cultural leader.

Theodora's ability is really cool but it doesn't really gel with Byzantium, ironically Basil could really use the culture to get to Divine Right!

All 3 will be interesting to play, Korea is a bit underwhelming but they're such a strong civ I guess they didn't want to make it even more OP.

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

Is the purple background a green screen?
Edit:
If the next pack is in two weeks hopefully they are still able to releases the fixes for mac then.

 

[rocksinmypath]

I got the impression from the stream that there actually are a lot of fans (especially on Reddit) and streamers who really do like optimising this sort of stuff.

A lot of players, myself included, have a tendency to focus on optimization, but that doesn't mean they're having fun doing it. Soren Johnson, who worked on Civ 3 and 4, talked about this at GDC, saying that players will optimize the fun out of a game, when provided the opportunity. The way you maximally utilize Sejong's ability is to, exactly when you're about to unlock a new era tech, go through every single one of your cities, have it work campus project and focus on science yield. Then, once, you unlock the tech, you again cycle through all cities, undoing the changes you made the turn before. I'm not really sure where the fun is with that.