[LP] Leader Pass: Great Builders - 3/14 Developer Livestream Discussion w/ Potato McWhiskey

[Eagle Pursuit]

Doing a little theorycrafting on Theo.

The Faith adjacency from Farms is probably the strongest part. Yes, the Culture is good for expanding borders and crunching through the Civics tree, but the Holy Site and Hippodrome are Ancient/Classical and she will have a solid Faith economy without a reliance on mountains and Natural Wonders.

So, I'm thinking you want to spot your first Holy Site location early, then make Builders and plant Farms around it ASAP. Don't hesitate to Chop woods to plant Farms around your Holy Sites and Hipppodromes. The Farms are better.

Taking Desert Folklore or Dance of the Aurora to boost up HS adjacency is not necessarily going to net you huge Faith, since you can't build Farms on (most) Desert and Tundra. But they will compensate for the lack of Farm spots in those starts.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Well, the only new model we'll get is Elizabeth, and even then, we kind of have an idea of what she'll look like because of marketing. Victoria and Harald are only going to get new clothes.

As much as I wanted to rush wonders with gold, I can get over it considering you get benefits from not even completing them.

Harald already holds his Viking helmet a lot, so you can bet that he will have one of those Varangian helmets with the full chain mail masks.

 

[Uberfrog]

I'm feeling, perhaps irrationally, frustrated by Sejong's ability. This is something I've noticed throughout the Leader Pass, particularly with the likes of Wu Zetian and Ramses. There seems to be a large discrepancy between what I (and probably many other players) and what the designers believe would make the game fun. Optimizing the tech and civic trees is not that fun, at least not throughout the entire game. That's especially so when the reward the player gets doesn't feel great enough to justify optimization efforts. If the player chooses to engage, it's because they can, not because they feel great doing it.

I got the impression from the stream that there actually are a lot of fans (especially on Reddit) and streamers who really do like optimising this sort of stuff.

 

[Leucarum]

I got the impression from the stream that there actually are a lot of fans (especially on Reddit) and streamers who really do like optimising this sort of stuff.

Yeah! It does sound like "massive yields" are getting the most social media traction and... Honestly they have kind of been a theme for a lot of the leaders this pass... Keita's great works, tokugawa's trade routes, Yongle's cities, Theodora's holy sites, ludwig's wonders... Even Cleo's flood plains. All very amenable to yeild porn...

 

[iammaxhailme]

Because I didn't find it when searching via text, here's the abilities:

Ludwig - Swan King
Wonders, even unfinished, receive a +2 Culture bonus from each adjacent District. All Culture adjacency bonuses provide Tourism after discovering Castles.

Agenda: Eternal Enigma
Likes civilizations who do not maximize the number of Districts in their cities, and dislikes those who do.

Sejong - Hangul
When the first technology from a new era is completed, receives Culture equal to double the Science per turn.

Agenda: Neo-Confucianism
Likes civilizations who are behind him in Culture and Science. Dislikes those who are ahead of him in either of these fields.

Theodora: Metanoia
Holy Sites provide Culture equal to their adjacency bonus. Farms provide a Faith adjacency to Hippodromes and Holy Sites.

Agenda: The New Rome
Likes civilizations with high Culture output. Dislikes civilizations with low Culture output.

My thoughts:
Ludwig: I certainly find this playstyle more appealing than Frederick's! There aren't many culture-victory civs with a strong production output, so I look forward to making some wonder/theater square/hansa triangles with the hansa's hammer boosts. AI Ludwig is gonna hate me, though...

Sejong: Ability's kinda boring tbh. Probably reasonably powerful, but not fun sounding. Not much to say apart from that I prefer Seondeok's.

Theodora: Basil is a super well designed leader, but I just don't like warring, so Theodora will be my preferred Byzantine leader. It'll probably annoy me having to choose between farm and district adjacency at some point, but I think it'll be fun to play with.

2/3 leaders sound fun to me, but Korea as a civ jives with my playstyle, so I'm glad all around!

 

[iammaxhailme]

Someone may have posted this already, but... maybe it'd be a good idea to place many wonders as soon as you research it with Ludwig, even if you don't plan to build them. Just to get the adjacencies until someone else builds them. Is that insane? Yeah kinda, but so was he. Just don't waste too many tiles

 

[blackbutterfly]

Theodora looks like a completely busted leader. She looks amazingly fun but if this game was still being actively developed she'd be getting a big nerf at some point.

Byzantium got hit with the nerf stick (in the form of a new leader). 😏

The other leader (whose name slips my mind - the bloke) is super OP.
Religious victory is like a no-brainer with him.

 

[UWHabs]

Catching up on the livestream, I really liked giving the leader's history as a preview before jumping into the save. Love the historical touch to it.

 

[Planktonic]

I'm sorry, but the unfinished Wonders giving culture bonus feels stupid to me. It would be better if it were like a research project: you get a bonus while you are actively working on something even if you don't complete it. Where else in the game do you get such a high bonus (culture is imo the hardest yield to get) for just lazily starting something that you don't even have to give a full turn of production. Stupid.

His ability would be strong and interesting enough if finished Wonders gave culture bonus to all districts (not just Theater Squares) and all culture adjacencies/yields give tourism early. That's already really strong. The unfinished part really rubs me the wrong way and is just dumb.

 

[Pitohui]

They said:
"We'll see you on the 28th, and we'll have more news for you"

Does he mean the 3 new leaders?
It sounded more like "future of the franchise news" to me, especially because he was so nervous to get the wording right

The 3 new leaders would not be really news,i think-we know who they are.abilities are not really news. So let's hope it's something about civ VII. Timing feels right also,doubt they want to wait long after more or less already announcing it

 

[bbbt]

I'm actually not sure Sejong's ability is quite as boring as it looks. It's not really my vibe, but it looks like it's designed for a certain sort of mini-maxer who will do things like delay getting techs, maxing out science for a particular turn, etc Ala GS bulbing folks from previous games and the like.

 

[Pitohui]

I'm sorry, but the unfinished Wonders giving culture bonus feels stupid to me. It would be better if it were like a research project: you get a bonus while you are actively working on something even if you don't complete it. Where else in the game do you get such a high bonus (culture is imo the hardest yield to get) for just lazily starting something that you don't even have to give a full turn of production. Stupid.

His ability would be strong and interesting enough if finished Wonders gave culture bonus to all districts (not just Theater Squares) and all culture adjacencies/yields give tourism early. That's already really strong. The unfinished part really rubs me the wrong way and is just dumb.

It's very on brand for Ludwig though. If you wanted to balance it you make it so unfinished wonders cost GPT imo,although someone lese already pointed out that you lose the tile yields (for no actually benefit in the end) while the unfinished wonder is there

 

[King William I]

So we have a leader with an ability that only triggers a handful of times each turn leading a civ who's only bonuses are about two improvements next to their unique district. Said district starts good but falls off to the point of near uselessness mid-game unless you get lucky and have a lot of land to spread your cities out.

Can anyone say F-tier?

Ludwig and Theodora are great though

 

[Pitohui]

Also,Sejong Redesign:
Seowons get +1 Culture per adjacent district. Buildings inside the Seowon get +1 Great Work Slot,+2 Great Writer Points

 

[Pitohui]

So we have a leader with an ability that only triggers a handful of times each turn leading a civ who's only bonuses are about two improvements next to their unique district. Said district starts good but falls off to the point of near uselessness mid-game unless you get lucky and have a lot of land to spread your cities out.

Can anyone say F-tier?

Ludwig and Theodora are great though

Korea's Bonuses would be A tier if they had a blank leader so no. From a design perspective it is perhaps

 

[blackbutterfly]

It's very on brand for Ludwig though. If you wanted to balance it you make it so unfinished wonders cost GPT imo,although someone lese already pointed out that you lose the tile yields (for no actually benefit in the end) while the unfinished wonder is there

Re: Ludwig.

Ok, is nobody talking about the elephant in the room? In the dev livestream historical intro for Ludwig they cite him as "a gay man...".
So is this Civ's first openly LGBTQ leader?

There's potentially Alexander, Kristina and the forthcoming (or returning) Elizabeth.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

I think the fact that Ludwig's unfinished wonders do not incur GPT is a missed opportunity. It plays incredibly well into the theme of Ludwig as someone who can bankrupt the entire nation on wonders. Also, trading gold for culture is something incredibly unique, and also well-designed asymmetrical abilities always tend to be well received.

 

[Planktonic]

Also,Sejong Redesign:
Seowons get +1 Culture per adjacent district. Buildings inside the Seowon get +1 Great Work Slot,+2 Great Writer Points

This is a really great design. I always have trouble in science games to get enough culture, and this makes for really interesting choices in district placement for Korea.

 

[bbbt]

Re: Ludwig.

Ok, is nobody talking about the elephant in the room? In the dev livestream historical intro for Ludwig they cite him as "a gay man...".
So is this Civ's first openly LGBTQ leader?

There's potentially Alexander, Kristina and the forthcoming (or returning) Elizabeth.
View attachment 656752

Frederick the Great has lead Germany in a number of the previous Civ games. And Alexander has been in every game, who certainly has some compelling evidence.

 

[_hero_]

I'm actually not sure Sejong's ability is quite as boring as it looks. It's not really my vibe, but it looks like it's designed for a certain sort of mini-maxer who will do things like delay getting techs, maxing out science for a particular turn, etc Ala GS bulbing folks from previous games and the like.

Yeah the ability itself is fine IMO. It is very much a pro gamer™ ability though. Depending on how it calculates there may be ways to seriously cheese it. For instance, if you use Darwin to pop +2000 science on a 4 hex natural wonder, which in turn grants you your first tech of the era, will you then get +4000 culture or does the bonus only count your per turn science?