Learning Deity II : Montezuma

[Gumbolt]

Pends how you do the coastal cities. The cow/pigs city north could be coastal. The silk city would offer trade routes which would help once you have sailing. You really have to think of everything on deity level.

Guessing the silk city would also have 1 extra commerce too? The sheep and corn will offer little commerce till cottages.

 

[Revent]

So what about 1W of my original plan? I lose the wheat, but gain lots of grassland tiles and its one tile closer to the cap as well. However, that would mean I can't build on the silk anymore. But this would also mean that I gain access to copper which may be crucial in catching those barb cities! I've got a couple of coastal plans in the near future so coastal isn't a TOP priority!

Yes, extra commerce Cottages are going to come very soon actually.

 

[Doshin]

Move your white dot 1E, not 1W. This gives you two resources in the inner ring and leaves room for at least one city in between, to repeat Zx's point.

If you move the white dot 1W you lose the middle city. Furthermore, the 1W city will lack for food until AH, which at this stage is not a huge priority tech. In the early game, food > commerce > hammers (a huge simplification, and obviously you need a certain amount of balance) because food = land (workers/settlers) which = commerce and hammers (through new cities, workers to build improvements, and whipped infrastructure). The wheat will let the 1E city grow, the gold will make it profitable.

Settling on the silk or one S of the silk allows you to immediately share a corn with the capital and grow cottages. I would settle 1S of the silk if you think you can get to the cow spot before the AI. Settle on the silk if you want the trade routes.

 

[Gumbolt]

Oh you lack AH. I didn't check that. The way I see it is your original 4 resource city would kill your science and leave you with a city with no growth. 1W is no use without AH. 1E with the wheat maybe useful but in all fairness the city will struggle with all the plains but could work the gold sooner.

Settling on the silk gives you an extra commerce from settling on the resource. Gives you coastal trade routes and a corn already farmed. (No worker use needed)

Settling 1S is a nice city but you lack Ah for now to make it great anyway.

You are teching pottery. Once you settle your third city your science rate will fall by 30-50%. You will have between +4- +7 gold a turn at 0% science pending where you settle.

One thought. You could settle the silk city and rush out a 4th city for wheat and gold. The wheat city would allow you to work the gold without a border pop on the third city allowing it to grow to size 2-3. Barb defences would be the main issue here.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Oh you lack AH. I didn't check that. The way I see it is your original 4 resource city would kill your science and leave you with a city with no growth. 1W is no use without AH. 1E with the wheat maybe useful but in all fairness the city will struggle with all the plains but could work the gold sooner.

Settling on the silk gives you an extra commerce from settling on the resource. Gives you coastal trade routes and a corn already farmed. (No worker use needed)

Settling 1S is a nice city but you lack Ah for now to make it great anyway.

You are teching pottery. Once you settle your third city your science rate will fall by 30-50%. You will have between +4- +7 gold a turn at 0% science pending where you settle.

One thought. You could settle the silk city and rush out a 4th city for wheat and gold. The wheat city would allow you to work the gold without a border pop on the third city allowing it to grow to size 2-3. Barb defences would be the main issue here.

I think he has archery, I don't want to check atm, but yes no AH means the silk will be much beter much sooner. It will also be able to work the gold in 10 turns if he prechops the monument. It provides everything he needs this early. Lots of commerce, and is a good worker pump at size 2. Once he gets writing it will be able to grow off the cottages, and food the capital isn't working while getting your GS. It wil easily pay for him to settle a sheep copper city in a few turns also.

 

[Gumbolt]

Overall he should at least play till point when settler is built. I see the argument for the silk city.

 

[Revent]

I think he has archery, I don't want to check atm, but yes no AH means the silk will be much beter much sooner. It will also be able to work the gold in 10 turns if he prechops the monument. It provides everything he needs this early. Lots of commerce, and is a good worker pump at size 2. Once he gets writing it will be able to grow off the cottages, and food the capital isn't working while getting your GS. It wil easily pay for him to settle a sheep copper city in a few turns also.

I do have archery.

Oh you lack AH. I didn't check that. The way I see it is your original 4 resource city would kill your science and leave you with a city with no growth. 1W is no use without AH. 1E with the wheat maybe useful but in all fairness the city will struggle with all the plains but could work the gold sooner.

Settling on the silk gives you an extra commerce from settling on the resource. Gives you coastal trade routes and a corn already farmed. (No worker use needed)

Settling 1S is a nice city but you lack Ah for now to make it great anyway.

You are teching pottery. Once you settle your third city your science rate will fall by 30-50%. You will have between +4- +7 gold a turn at 0% science pending where you settle.

One thought. You could settle the silk city and rush out a 4th city for wheat and gold. The wheat city would allow you to work the gold without a border pop on the third city allowing it to grow to size 2-3. Barb defences would be the main issue here.

I don't think it would kill it because it'd have gold in the first ring, but I think the more optimal solution is 1E of my initial plan. 1S of silk looks very good although coast and 1 extra commerce off the bat makes it very appealing!

Move your white dot 1E, not 1W. This gives you two resources in the inner ring and leaves room for at least one city in between, to repeat Zx's point.

If you move the white dot 1W you lose the middle city. Furthermore, the 1W city will lack for food until AH, which at this stage is not a huge priority tech. In the early game, food > commerce > hammers (a huge simplification, and obviously you need a certain amount of balance) because food = land (workers/settlers) which = commerce and hammers (through new cities, workers to build improvements, and whipped infrastructure). The wheat will let the 1E city grow, the gold will make it profitable.

Settling on the silk or one S of the silk allows you to immediately share a corn with the capital and grow cottages. I would settle 1S of the silk if you think you can get to the cow spot before the AI. Settle on the silk if you want the trade routes.

Very good idea actually! 1E rather than 1W is strong, however, that will come after the gold silk site.

What cows are you referring to by the way?

 

[Revent]

T57

Anyway, I played until I settled the city! What I have done so far:
-I managed to steal the worker after forgetting about it because I decided to scout with the archer near the barb city. I found it was actually heading towards the second barb city and I took it en route
-Settled on the silk
-Building worker in capital
-Pottery coming up in three turns
-Follow that with settler (or maybe Barracks first to let city get to size 5) Agree? Disagree?
-Settle the gold/copper/wheat city


At the moment, I have 3 (soon 4) workers. With pottery coming up, I'm going to need one or two more workers since floodplain cottaging is worker intensive.
Tech wise, is it worth going AH before writing to get that tech discount?

What cities should I settle after I settle the copper/gold/wheat?

Bear in mind, I don't have AH or fishing yet. Thanks everyone!!

 

[Duckweed]

@revent

Not sure whether you are comfortable on doing some Math, which is a very efficient way of evaluation on various results. Count the total food, hammer and commerce yield. Food = 1.2 H before granary and 1H is slightly better than 1C in early stage.

Some thoughts about the opening in this game.

Capital:

Worker->warrior->archers to 1 turn to size 6->settler and then 3 pop whip->archer->2nd worker at size 4-> keep doing 2 pop whip of worker or 3 pop whip of settler and let the overflow into archers or warrior. Whip the granary when it's available to increase the whipping effect.

2nd city: the wheat gold site in inner ring (monument 1st to access the copper tile->archer to size 3 and then worker/settler pumping)
3rd and 4th city : Block william
5th city : Block east.

You 2nd and 3rd cities were quite suboptimally settled.

 

[Mylene]

Depends on playing style, i very rarely block much land if my close spots are nice and fluffy.
Here it's looking very good, marble too..nopes i would let them settle some for me, and send them some thankies and Riders later

 

[Revent]

@revent

Not sure whether you are comfortable on doing some Math, which is a very efficient way of evaluation on various results. Count the total food, hammer and commerce yield. Food = 1.2 H before granary and 1H is slightly better than 1C in early stage.

Some thoughts about the opening in this game.

Capital:

Worker->warrior->archers to 1 turn to size 6->settler and then 3 pop whip->archer->2nd worker at size 4-> keep doing 2 pop whip of worker or 3 pop whip of settler and let the overflow into archers or warrior. Whip the granary when it's available to increase the whipping effect.

2nd city: the wheat gold site in inner ring (monument 1st to access the copper tile->archer to size 3 and then worker/settler pumping)
3rd and 4th city : Block william
5th city : Block east.

You 2nd and 3rd cities were quite suboptimally settled.

1F=1.2H before granary; 1H=0.83F. What about after granary?
1H>1C early game.

What kind of numbers would be good for a good city? Do you include the city tile when doing the calcs?

And, not sure if it might be too much to ask for, but do you mind actually showing me ie, in a save how you would open up please? Only if you have some spare time, it'd be great and really helpful!

Re the second city, why would you say it was suboptimal? I would've thought it's a good site as it can work some cottages for me whilst adding extra commerce off the bat. However, I guess it could've been settled as I got closer to pottery..

 

[Revent]

Depends on playing style, i very rarely block much land if my close spots are nice and fluffy.
Here it's looking very good, marble too..nopes i would let them settle some for me, and send them some thankies and Riders later

Double gold is nice and fluffy, but that rice is covered by jungle
However, settling it and just working the gold until IW would still be a net profit
Don't think I'll be going for TGL. It's going to be a tough shot IMO.

 

[Duckweed]

1F=1.2H before granary; 1H=0.83F. What about after granary?
1H>1C early game.

*2

What kind of numbers would be good for a good city? Do you include the city tile when doing the calcs?

Add all cities' total yields and compare at a certain time.

And, not sure if it might be too much to ask for, but do you mind actually showing me ie, in a save how you would open up please? Only if you have some spare time, it'd be great and really helpful!

I rarely have interest in starting CIV4. You could try to follow my suggestion above, that's detailed enough.

Re the second city, why would you say it was suboptimal? I would've thought it's a good site as it can work some cottages for me whilst adding extra commerce off the bat. However, I guess it could've been settled as I got closer to pottery..

The gold city is way better than any other site, why would you delay it?

 

[shakabrade]

I went for Willem blockers after Wine city and settled there last second before willem did. I never have problems with settling far away if there is gold or workable gems around. My second city should have been bronze/gold/sheep but I failed to recognize that. Settling on wine which was in my culture, therefore protected by GW, was too tempting. But it didn't hurt me much. It did amazing job with growing cottages while my capital was busy with settlers. So I don't think wine is so much worse.

 

[Duckweed]

^ AIs behave different in different play, you don't know when William is going to settle to your nose. Moreover, wheat is stronger than Sheep and gold gives an extra happiness, which also help the whipping a lot. I only make suggestions based on the current information he revealed.

 

[Manco Capac]

Food = 1.2 H before granary and 1H is slightly better than 1C in early stage.

Is that arbitrary numbers coming from experience.
Food is slightly stronger than hammers, thus about 0.2 more valuable.

Surprising you used slightly for hammers over commerce while Obsolete used hammers is win and commerce is ugh. Prolly some sort of sarcastic tone or simply more adapted to his SSE strategy (hammers for wonders).

^ AIs behave different in different play, you don't know when William is going to settle to your nose. Moreover, wheat is stronger than Sheep and gold gives an extra happiness, which also help the whipping a lot. I only make suggestions based on the current information he revealed.

I second this.
Barb cities, barb units and your own cities (@Revent) are probably the biggest factors that change the founding value (the parameter on all tiles that determines the best settling location) of the region.

 

[Duckweed]

Is that arbitrary numbers coming from experience.
Food is slightly stronger than hammers, thus about 0.2 more valuable.

Surprising you used slightly for hammers over commerce while Obsolete used hammers is win and commerce is ugh. Prolly some sort of sarcastic tone or simply more adapted to his SSE strategy (hammers for wonders).

That's just a simplified estimation, the food to hammer ratio depends on city size.

Size 1 to 2: 30/22
Size 2 to 3: 30/24
and so on.

In early stage, you want to reach some techs as fast as possible, sometime I value commerce > Food and hammer.

 

[Manco Capac]

Cool. Thanks.
That's why "whippage" on low pops (4 pops best) give better ratio as each pop adds 2 to the food bank.

I always thought people were thinking in terms "without enough food, we cannot grow, then long whipping cycles or simply bigger cities means overall better outputs" And food can be converted into any other outputs; hammers via organic productions or whipping and beakers, wealth or culture via specialists.

 

[Revent]

Is that arbitrary numbers coming from experience.
Food is slightly stronger than hammers, thus about 0.2 more valuable.

Surprising you used slightly for hammers over commerce while Obsolete used hammers is win and commerce is ugh. Prolly some sort of sarcastic tone or simply more adapted to his SSE strategy (hammers for wonders).



I second this.
Barb cities, barb units and your own cities (@Revent) are probably the biggest factors that change the founding value (the parameter on all tiles that determines the best settling location) of the region.

So the barb cities mean that Willem will be less likely to settle near me?

The gold city is way better than any other site, why would you delay it?

This is based on the assumption that you whip of course, right? Also, how do you balance between whipping and the happy cap? It's relatively low and 3 whips can easily mean cities are unhappy at size 2/3 which would can have a worse impact than getting those settlers a couple of turns earlier?

Which gold do you refer to? There are three on the west and one east.

 

[Duckweed]

This is based on the assumption that you whip of course, right?

Only partially, the yield from the gold tile itself is better than any other tile, it almost doubles your early beaker output of whole empire. Moreover, that city has 3 strong resources, a very good site for worker/settler pumping.

Also, how do you balance between whipping and the happy cap? It's relatively low and 3 whips can easily mean cities are unhappy at size 2/3 which would can have a worse impact than getting those settlers a couple of turns earlier?

You need time for city to grow back, before granary, growing from size3 to size 6 almost takes the same time as the decay of the whipping anger(10 turns). After granary is available, then your city will grow faster than the the decay of the whipping anger, however, you still have the choice of slow-building the worker/settler when the further whipping is going to stop you from working the great tiles (5+ yield) My rule of thumb, settle all good cities as soon as possible when SAFE and have AT LEAST 1 WORKER (better to have 2 workers ready to improve the 1st resource) to improve the tile IMMEDIATELY.

Which gold do you refer to? There are three on the west and one east.

I can't explain clearer than my earlier posts.

As I see, there is big room for you to improve your expansion skill:

How to plan your capital build
How to spot the city site and determine the priority
How to timing the worker/settler build
How to use the slavery efficiently

All those things happen before T100, they are the fundamental CIV skills, but can be mastered in a couple games if you try to think and test. Playing too many games won't help much. Listen to everyone's suggestions but don't blindly follow, believe in yourself through tests, that why I mentioned to your about calculating the total yields.