Learning Deity II : Montezuma

[BornInCantaloup]

Would not be sold by safe IMHO, it is rather likely wine spot gets wave from banana golden area in between fogbusters.

Aye, indeed! Now that you mention it, I can dimly remember losing an attempt to precisely that, going Pottery all the way and being pillaged to death
Granted, the eastern site is more appealing. You're right to mention the garrison archer can move there quite easily.


@Mining the pigs before farming the second corn:
Attacko guys and MP players will definitely say 1 food resource is enough for starters.
I guess the map layout, Bronze Working "proximity" and luxury resources availability all play their role.

 

[Revent]

Aye, indeed! Now that you mention it, I can dimly remember losing an attempt to precisely that, going Pottery all the way and being pillaged to death
Granted, the eastern site is more appealing. You're right to mention the garrison archer can move there quite easily.


@Mining the pigs before farming the second corn:
Attacko guys and MP players will definitely say 1 food resource is enough for starters.
I guess the map layout, Bronze Working "proximity" and luxury resources availability all play their role.

Agree that one food is enough to start with. I went corn->pigs->pigs->corn.
It was wasting some worker turns as I had to go back and forth but it helped production.

@ Revent : As you found out (the hard way), barbs with this much AI-free land can be a pia. I didn't build GW and only built warriors. Improved only one corn so I could work both mined pigs. My results for comparison...

Wow! That's pretty insane

Would not be sold by safe IMHO, it is rather likely wine spot gets wave from banana golden area in between fogbusters.

If either settling wine or near silk/gold I would move archer from cap into it and soak anger while building warrior. If i am soaking anger from unprotected citizens I'd rather have gold.

On generic notes - I would not have put second corn as my second tile, but make second improvement as mined pigs and likely third being mined pigs too. Same before working mined pigs put second citizen on some forested hill instead FP.
From times I've started tackling deity [and i still stuck in between immortal and diety for good] I've picked that one does not need lot of more units on Deity just needs to get them done lots of faster. So since mined pigs and corn are +5 tiles anyway [and with same time to improve actually] I'd rather had more hammers. +5 from first corn is enough to growth capitol.
Of course I would like to hear what experts on Deity would do.

I mined both pigs first
I think it is safer in the sense that I can easily get units from cap to city and vice versa. However, I think I need A LOT more archery units! Barbs are pretty tough here.

Trade network:
-River inside your borders: need no particular tech.
-Coast inside your borders: need Fishing.
-Coast or river outside your borders: need Sailing.

Ah, I see, so for all these games I played, I used to build roads for no reason Thanks for the clarification!

 

[Revent]

T55

I've survived the initial barb onslaught, however, there appears to be a barb city where I wanted to settle! So I've got some issues now On a side note, I've killed 11 warriors, 7 archers and 3 wolves. Lost in total, 1 scout!!

I'm thinking of settling Pink, followed by Blue in the east. After I do that, I want to settle green, grab the copper and then settle on the wine. The white fish city is honestly just a filler.
I want to grab yellow ASAP before Willem takes it. If I'm successful, I should be able to block Willem off which would be awesome! I do plan to kill him sooner rather than later though!! But for now, adopting Hind should get him to pleased.

Tech->AH->Pottery->Writing
City Build: Settler->Settler->Worker->Worker or maybe whip a library?
Maybe go straight writing before pottery? Those cottages are on flood plains, so will take some time before they get online.

Tips welcome.

 

[Doshin]

That's an awful lot of dots to settle if you plan to postpone Pottery. Blocking isn't everything: a strong core will trump a large but thinly spread empire every time.

I'd settle the wine city first and start to cottage around your capital. With your third city growing the cottages, you'll be safe to expand more aggressively.

On another note, don't forget that Wilhelm is creative, which means that he'll almost certainly out-culture you in any 'second ring' tiles you happen to share. For example, if you can't settle the stone white-dot spot, you'll need to move the pink-dot 1E in order to grab the rice.

 

[Jester Fool]

Probably makes more sense to settle stone/phant/rice first (all 1st ring resources) and then get the gold/copper site afterwards. I'd also settle the flood plains before pink and the other block city. Pottery before Writing makes more sense because you have alot (for Deity) of expanding to do. Don't underestimate city maintenance.

 

[Duckweed]

Isn't the green dot a much better site as 2nd city? 1st ring Food tile + GOLD.

 

[Soirana]

Need second worker soon - doubt if that poor guy doing overshifts would mine gold in time

Also you are voluntarily loosing like 3 coins per turn

 

[Revent]

Need second worker soon - doubt if that poor guy doing overshifts would mine gold in time

Also you are voluntarily loosing like 3 coins per turn

City 2 gets to size 2->Builds a worker

How am I losing 3 gold?

Isn't the green dot a much better site as 2nd city? 1st ring Food tile + GOLD.

City 2 already grabs the gold I've got a monument in it already so should be getting border pop soon.

Probably makes more sense to settle stone/phant/rice first (all 1st ring resources) and then get the gold/copper site afterwards. I'd also settle the flood plains before pink and the other block city. Pottery before Writing makes more sense because you have alot (for Deity) of expanding to do. Don't underestimate city maintenance.

Oh okay, will go pottery for sure
I do have hunting already, so it'd be nice to also get the happiness bonus (and hopefully deny Willem it as well).

That's an awful lot of dots to settle if you plan to postpone Pottery. Blocking isn't everything: a strong core will trump a large but thinly spread empire every time.

I'd settle the wine city first and start to cottage around your capital. With your third city growing the cottages, you'll be safe to expand more aggressively.

On another note, don't forget that Wilhelm is creative, which means that he'll almost certainly out-culture you in any 'second ring' tiles you happen to share. For example, if you can't settle the stone white-dot spot, you'll need to move the pink-dot 1E in order to grab the rice.

Would you suggest forgetting AH for now then and going straight pottery?

Ah yes, you're right, so have to be a bit more careful about that! If I settle before him and build a monument and Lib, I SHOULD be able to outculture him providing I settle before him actually. Something about hidden culture which I don't fully understand, but I need to get to 100 before he does.

 

[Soirana]

City 2 gets to size 2->Builds a worker

For my taste by time it is size two [on current growth] it ought to work gold

How am I losing 3 gold?

"Losing" and "3" is a tad arbitrary, but:
A)You work green forest instead of FP while building settler. Same hammer output towards settler -1coin.
B)Loose one coin/beaker due to rounding, if you don't want do binary should at least put slider at 50 -would be one less beaker two more coins.
C)This is question of perspective and priority i guess - Assigning corn to city two, which was basically point why some people offered to settle there it is and working another FP in cap is also extra coin, slows a settler a bit although.
Since cap is already pressed by food [having 23 food stored while building settler is sorta strange, IMHO] what corn probably should be assigned to city number two for quite time in near future.

By delaying gold and sheep with building worker in city number two you loose even more. Well again everyone has his own priorities, by my not so humble taste you put too much weight on potential blocking, by what is known Mr. Orange might be escorting his settlers toward that place straight now.

Edit: For the interest what is point of AH straight now?

 

[Revent]

For my taste by time it is size two [on current growth] it ought to work gold

"Losing" and "3" is a tad arbitrary, but:
A)You work green forest instead of FP while building settler. Same hammer output towards settler -1coin.
B)Loose one coin/beaker due to rounding, if you don't want do binary should at least put slider at 50 -would be one less beaker two more coins.
C)This is question of perspective and priority i guess - Assigning corn to city two, which was basically point why some people offered to settle there it is and working another FP in cap is also extra coin, slows a settler a bit although.
Since cap is already pressed by food [having 23 food stored while building settler is sorta strange, IMHO] what corn probably should be assigned to city number two for quite time in near future.

By delaying gold and sheep with building worker in city number two you loose even more. Well again everyone has his own priorities, by my not so humble taste you put too much weight on potential blocking, by what is known Mr. Orange might be escorting his settlers toward that place straight now.

Edit: For the interest what is point of AH straight now?

At size 2, it can work corn and gold whilst building a worker

Ah, I see! Well, thanks for that input, it was actually really silly of me to not notice it myself!!

Re the binary, do you actually do it all the time in the beginning game? I always did it just before a library. But I guess in the beg, it may be more important as one commerce is a significant proportion of total.

Would you advice against AH right now? Or would you go for pottery before finishing AH? I'm not sure right now because I'm going for the wine as it is and not sure if that city will contribute much before and pottery first may be the way to go! I don't actually even know why I decided to research it!

 

[Soirana]

At size 2, it can work corn and gold whilst building a worker

How that gold will end being improved without mentioned worker being built puzzles me a lot....

Edit: as one of fans of binary i should mark that main factor is not rounding, but meeting more AI or known AI getting tech in question. There used to bee some multiplier for other civ knowing tech already, unless i am messing Civ4 with some other strategy games

 

[Revent]

How that gold will end being improved without mentioned worker being built puzzles me a lot....

Wine city doesn't need a road to it, so the first worker can build the mine whilst the second city can build a worker. Third city doesn't really need a monument so it can go straight for an archer followed by a worker.
and since I for the life of me can not remember why I went for AH, and pottery seems so much more appealing, I think I'm going to switch over.
Edit:And you're actually right! You get discounts on techs if you meet lots of AI that already have it. Or something along those lines.

 

[Soirana]

You building worker out of 3yield tile?

Jokes and smileys aside, thing i don't like most is that you already working couple unimproved tiles while still planing both grow up and settle more.
I would strongly suggest whiping out worker in cap as soon as settler is finished. With full food bin you essentially loos like few turns and pop point [pop working unimproved] to get extra worker.

 

[Duckweed]

@revent

Capital is the 1st city, hence 2nd city refers to the city established by your 1st settler. Your citizen could work on the GOLD tile (the best tile in the opening) more than 10 turns earlier.

Your build order in capital needs serious adjustment, a 2nd or even 3rd worker should be produced before 2nd settler.

 

[Doshin]

You've already invested in AH, so it's probably best to stick with that and settle the green dot city for the time being. Beakers atrophy over time. The wine city, IMO, would be best used to provide commerce by growing cottages, and if you can't put down cottages it serves too limited a purpose. So I rescind my earlier comment about the placement of your next city.

BTW, Pottery will currently require 14 turns to research, which should demonstrate that you need to up your beakers per turn rate as a matter of priority.

In terms of city management, I took a look at the save and see that your capital has no whip anger (the horror!) in addition to its working unimproved tiles. Are you familiar with the use of overflow? In a high food/low hammer start like this, manipulating overflow with 2-pop whips is crucial for quick expansion. There are also two archers in your second city. Could one of these be out fog-busting?

 

[Revent]

You've already invested in AH, so it's probably best to stick with that and settle the green dot city for the time being. Beakers atrophy over time. The wine city, IMO, would be best used to provide commerce by growing cottages, and if you can't put down cottages it serves too limited a purpose. So I rescind my earlier comment about the placement of your next city.

BTW, Pottery will currently require 14 turns to research, which should demonstrate that you need to up your beakers per turn rate as a matter of priority.

In terms of city management, I took a look at the save and see that your capital has no whip anger (the horror!) in addition to its working unimproved tiles. Are you familiar with the use of overflow? In a high food/low hammer start like this, manipulating overflow with 2-pop whips is crucial for quick expansion. There are also two archers in your second city. Could one of these be out fog-busting?

However, at the same time, I do also need the commerce pretty urgently.

Overflow? I sorta know the gists of it but nothing technical. I just know to whip just as the city is about to grow (?) or something like that

@revent

Capital is the 1st city, hence 2nd city refers to the city established by your 1st settler. Your citizen could work on the GOLD tile (the best tile in the opening) more than 10 turns earlier.

Your build order in capital needs serious adjustment, a 2nd or even 3rd worker should be produced before 2nd settler.

Will do ASAP. Thanks!

You building worker out of 3yield tile?

Jokes and smileys aside, thing i don't like most is that you already working couple unimproved tiles while still planing both grow up and settle more.
I would strongly suggest whiping out worker in cap as soon as settler is finished. With full food bin you essentially loos like few turns and pop point [pop working unimproved] to get extra worker.

Oh okay. Will do that then Thanks! As you can see, I'm still a noob Plus, I've been lacking focus lately for some reason

 

[Revent]

Okay, so I played on, and I've been doing it such that I don't save until I'm about to upload here! It really tempts me from reloading too much

But anyway, I accidentally declared war on one of the AI's by pressing yes at a demand!! So I just played on regardless to see how it goes and I managed to get 8 cities in total by peace and had room for a few more But my economy sucked.

Obviously, I've learnt from the mistakes I've made and I really need to focus. This is deity after all. Workers workers workers! Need to get that drilled into my head! Although on the bright side, I did manage to get a total of ~10 workers out by 100 BC

 

[Doshin]

Since workers and settlers, unlike regular builds, are constructed through a combination of hammers and food, any excess overflow from a whipped settler or worker will essentially convert into s. This is probably easier to illustrate by way of example:

Moscow:



The city, as it stands, only has a base production of 12 . Moreover, it's only possible to produce these 12 by working unimproved tiles. The city will exceed its happy cap shortly and is, as it stands, a weak production spot.

By switching to a settler, the city is now free to work better tiles while still managing its population:



Note that the base production has now increased to 16, owing to a 10 surplus.

A one-pop whip will provide you with 30 s and a two-pop whip will provide you with 60. Therefore if you are able to whip at a time that you need 31 s, you will receive 29 hammers in overflow:



Here I can whip at a time when 68 hammers are invested in a 90 hammer settler, giving me a total of 28 s of overflow for a two-pop whip.

After the whip, the city continues to build a settler for one turn (you don't receive the settler instantaneously) so those heavy pig tiles continue to convert into . The following turn:



With 43 s I can almost build two archers, half a library, a granary, or whatever.

I hope that's correct... I'm no mathematician

 

[shakabrade]

I'll tell you something that'll confuse you since you seem to absorb civfanatics a lot.

I don't do numbers but my gut feeling tells me people build way too many workers.

I usually build 0.6-0.7 workers per city and hate 1.5 workers per city rule here. Ok, it could be good on rainforest. I don't do maths when to produce stuff, but build them when I feel the need for them. Key is getting your first 3 workers very early and improving only tiles you'll use. I consider overproducing workers a bad thing. I probably had no more than 5 or 6 workers 100BC and had most if not all of the tiles improved. You can do many things with 300 and extra population you got from not stagnating. Also, if cities happen to get out of control and grow so fast that you can't improve all tiles there are two options: assign them as specialists or whip them. If you want a cottage spam you need more workers, but cottages are overarated anyway. Mixed economy FTW!


Edit: Great illustration, Doshin.

 

[Manco Capac]

1.5 workers is for automaters (people automating their workers). You see...