Lee commands the North, what happens?

Probably, that was just how long he was in charge of the Army of the Tennessee, he held other commands both before and after that tenure but I was just going for a summary to refute the point being made.

I know he spent some time as advisor to Davis, so I mght have been thinking of that (Lee's old position)

To be honest I'm not sure this would have happened quite so easily in the early stages of the war since Lincoln's hands were often tied by the need to appease political groups. Butler for example wasn't removed from command until early 1865 because his political power made doing so difficult prior to the Presidential Elections.

You might be more right than me, my only solid reason to include this was that during the Maryland Campaign ,mnay Northern senators and congressmen, as well as several members of Lincoln's cabinet wanted Mac to be arrested for treason if not thrown out of the army. Abe felt like Mac was the best choice for what he had to work with at that moment, and in spite of all the objection, went ahead and put Mac back in charge of the army.

Anyway it is all fun speculation and discussion, and much better than the well over-used and abused "What if the South had won at Gettysburg?"
type of things.
 
At least I'm assuming you meant months, if you meant mounts (horses) that's a rather strange statement! :crazyeye:

You know how it is. Jefferson Davis was a huge fan of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, so he loathed his commanders that were consistently unprotective of their mounts.
 
I have a different view of all of this. First of all, Lee was offered command of all the Federal armies, which means he had the complete confidence of Lincoln and Congress. He was widely recgonized as the number one soldier in America at the time. Even if he had taken the field, one or two reverses would not have mattered. Look what the north endured from most of its other early generals.
Plus being Lee, he would have been given much more of a free hand to get the armies ready. Much of the interferrence that Washington put on its eastern generals was because they were afraid of Lee. It was not until Grant was given control did they stop meddling with the military.


Pretty good reasoning, but the first large Fed battle (Manassas/Bull Run) was a defeat that got the commander replaced with McClellan, since the Union public was shocked to lose. I think Lee and McDowell would be interchangeable like this so Lee would probably get demoted if had a similar loss like Dachs predicts he would have had. IDK a thing about Lee's style of generalship, but I think his understanding of the science of war would serve him from the start of the war, given having a long pre-ACW military career with actual fighting.

Can't really comment about where the first battle would be though, without more thought and references to extrapolate from. It's reasonable to think that the South determined it to be Manasas by camping there pretty near D.C, and apparently near railroads to D.C.

Also if Lee wins the first battle as Union commander, that might change who he faces as chief Southern opponent. Which might change the way the war is fought. So really not "want of a nail" like Dachs says.

I'd also say that McClellan got a lot of free room to act, even if Lincoln double-checked on him. So I don't follow your statement about "meddling with the military".
 
Can't really comment about where the first battle would be though, without more thought and references to extrapolate from. It's reasonable to think that the South determined it to be Manasas by camping there pretty near D.C, and apparently near railroads to D.C.

You caught me at a good time, here. I am going to be involved with the 150th anniversary reenactment of 1st Man. in July, so I have been reading up on this one. I think you are right, Manassas was fought where it was because Beauregard had his army camped there, and so McDowell, under strong pressure from just about everywhere, went out to get him.
Incidently McDowell's and Beauregard's battle plans were identical, Mcdowell just got going first. Then he ran into Jackson, and it didn't help that his 33rd VA were wearing blue and got right into a Federal battery before they were recgonized.

Yes, McDowell lost command of the army, but he still kept command of first a division, then a corps under Pope. Very hard to say what Lee would have done, the only clue we have is that Lee greatly preferred to fight on ground that he himself chose.

I'd also say that McClellan got a lot of free room to act, even if Lincoln double-checked on him. So I don't follow your statement about "meddling with the military".

McCellan's problem was that he wasn't acting at all.:lol:
But what I mean is that he had to submit a plan of action for approval to the President, Sec of War, and I think some others. They then approved, or dissaproved what he proposed. And then they told him how many troops he had to leave to guard Washington while he went out campaigning. This began at least around the time of the 7 Days Campaign. Then Washington brought in Gen Pope, and formed an entirely new army using some of the divisions that McCellan wanted to reinforce his army. And on top of that Washington ordered Mac. to start putting his own army on transports, and send them up to Pope. And it kept on going like that.
You might recall that John Reynolds, perhaps the best Federal General that the AOP had at that time refused army command before Gettysburg, because he belived he would not recieve a free hand to operate. (Bad career choice for Reynolds, he was killed at Gettysburg)
This is the type of thing I am referring to. It didn't end until Grant got there.
 
But what I mean is that he had to submit a plan of action for approval to the President, Sec of War, and I think some others. They then approved, or dissaproved what he proposed. And then they told him how many troops he had to leave to guard Washington while he went out campaigning. This began at least around the time of the 7 Days Campaign. Then Washington brought in Gen Pope, and formed an entirely new army using some of the divisions that McCellan wanted to reinforce his army. And on top of that Washington ordered Mac. to start putting his own army on transports, and send them up to Pope. And it kept on going like that.
You might recall that John Reynolds, perhaps the best Federal General that the AOP had at that time refused army command before Gettysburg, because he belived he would not recieve a free hand to operate. (Bad career choice for Reynolds, he was killed at Gettysburg)
This is the type of thing I am referring to. It didn't end until Grant got there.
This was actually a good thing. Lincoln's recommendations were generally good ones, and having Halleck to fulfill the role McClellan should have fulfilled (essentially a glorified and more powerful version of Meigs) was ideal for an army that was committed to offensive operations and thus had to be extra careful about supply. The old Clausewitzian saw about political control of the military seems relevant.

Invariably, the failures of Federal generals in the eastern theater could not be chalked up to "too much interference from Washington". Lincoln didn't force Porter to sit idly by while the Army of Virginia was annihilated, nor did he endow McClellan with the dash and speed of a snail with indigestion. Nobody in Washington told Hooker to freeze or Burnside to have his soldiers commit suicide. At the same time, Halleck's instructions to, say, Meade kept the Army of the Potomac operating in a manner that made sense considering the overall Union strategy, but allowed Meade considerable leeway in determining how he pursued those instructions. When Grant moved east, his habit of taking over the Army of the Potomac's field operations may have been a good thing in an operational sense, but it was no upgrade over 1863 in the grand-strategic sense.
 
nor did he endow McClellan with the dash and speed of a snail with indigestion

Congratulations, that's just about my all time favourite summing up of McClellan! :lol:

But what I mean is that he had to submit a plan of action for approval to the President, Sec of War, and I think some others. They then approved, or dissaproved what he proposed. And then they told him how many troops he had to leave to guard Washington while he went out campaigning. This began at least around the time of the 7 Days Campaign. Then Washington brought in Gen Pope, and formed an entirely new army using some of the divisions that McCellan wanted to reinforce his army. And on top of that Washington ordered Mac. to start putting his own army on transports, and send them up to Pope. And it kept on going like that.

As I'm sure you are aware when Lincoln or Halleck did interfere with McClallan's conduct of the war it was usually with good reason, or after handing him considerable leeway on the issue beforehand. McClellan was insulting to Lincoln, secretive, slow to draw up plans of action, even slower to carry them out and took caution to extremes.

Lincoln and Halleck's tendency to interfere in McClellan's case was born out of the frustration at the AoP going nowhere fast. A competent and bold commander who was willing to share his plans would have enjoyed much greater support from Washington, even at the start of the war.
 
privatehudson;10479422]Congratulations, that's just about my all time favourite summing up of McClellan! :lol:

Yes, it is a great one. I will have to rank it up there with
"Terrible and Unswift McCellan" Don't recall where I saw that, but now I have two favorites.


As I'm sure you are aware when Lincoln or Halleck did interfere with McClallan's conduct of the war it was usually with good reason, or after handing him considerable leeway on the issue beforehand. McClellan was insulting to Lincoln, secretive, slow to draw up plans of action, even slower to carry them out and took caution to extremes.

Both you and Dachs have the same idea here, and I think you are both right. Lincoln apparently went to the Libary of Congress, and got out books on strategy to educate himself. I remember reading somewhere that some of his early efforts on strategy were pretty bad, but he was trying, and as you both said, with the best of intentions. (I think it was in Bruce Catton's Army of the Potomac 3 volume series.)
McCellan's private writings were very critical and insulting to the President. And his conduct during the 2nd Manassas campaign was actually treasonous, and he should have been arrested for it.

Lincoln and Halleck's tendency to interfere in McClellan's case was born out of the frustration at the AoP going nowhere fast. A competent and bold commander who was willing to share his plans would have enjoyed much greater support from Washington, even at the start of the war

Exactly my point on why Lee would not have had the trouble McCellan did. And also why I think that even a loss or two would have made little difference.
 
This was actually a good thing. Lincoln's recommendations were generally good ones, and having Halleck to fulfill the role McClellan should have fulfilled (essentially a glorified and more powerful version of Meigs) was ideal for an army that was committed to offensive operations and thus had to be extra careful about supply. The old Clausewitzian saw about political control of the military seems relevant.

Invariably, the failures of Federal generals in the eastern theater could not be chalked up to "too much interference from Washington". Lincoln didn't force Porter to sit idly by while the Army of Virginia was annihilated, nor did he endow McClellan with the dash and speed of a snail with indigestion. Nobody in Washington told Hooker to freeze or Burnside to have his soldiers commit suicide. At the same time, Halleck's instructions to, say, Meade kept the Army of the Potomac operating in a manner that made sense considering the overall Union strategy, but allowed Meade considerable leeway in determining how he pursued those instructions. When Grant moved east, his habit of taking over the Army of the Potomac's field operations may have been a good thing in an operational sense, but it was no upgrade over 1863 in the grand-strategic sense.

Dachs:
I was going to continue answering both you and privatehudson in one post, but you have so much in yours, that I felt it deserved its own response, just as hudson's did.

" a glorified and more powerful version of Meigs" That would be about right, and I think that if Mac could have stayed out of trouble then he would have thrived there. But that was no more in his make-up than moving decisively was. As I understand it, Mac's reputation in the army was 2nd only to Lee. He was chosen to go observe the Crieman War as the US representative, and write a paper on what he saw and learned. And even though he left the army, when the war broke out, he was instantly recieved back in, and made a general. So I doubt that he would have been happy being a glorious Meigs.

I understand and agree with you about the Federal generals. There is a law that is applied to studies of organizations. You probably know that name of it, I forget. But it states that "any organization tends to adopt the characteristics of its leader" I may not have the quote exactly right, but it certainly fits with Mac, and the Army of the Potomac. Remember after Antietam Lincoln called it "McCellan's body guard"
Halleck I am not so sure about. There are several historians who just do not care much for him, and the job he preformed for the country. I really have not much of an opinion, but I'd like to quote
Stephen Sears in the "Landscape Turned Red"
"Halleck was called "Old Brains" and seldom admiringly. A dumpy,paunchy,figure with stareing, fishlike eyes, he was quite without presence: his natural habitat was an office desk rather than a battlefield. yet in one respect the two men were much alike.(He is comparing halleck and Mac here) Both were versed in the rules of bureaucratic survival: be even cautious, deflect responsibility whenever possible, protect flanks and rear at all times from the hostile fire of critics."

So I am not sure how much he actually helped with anything, but I am amused at how he and Lincoln contrived to get Hooker to resign.

I do not agree with your Grant statement, if you are referring to the eastern theather of the war when you write "in the grand strategic sense". Grant's idea of latching outo Lee, and not letting go, while sending Sheridan into the Shenandoah Valley to destroy the supply of Lee's army I thnik is very sound and all about offensive actions. It was brutal war, especially to the mid-19th century civilian. But it was effective, and it won.

Anyway, it has occured to me that we may be getting to far from the topic of this post. No one has yelled at us yet, so maybe we are OK.
 
" a glorified and more powerful version of Meigs" That would be about right, and I think that if Mac could have stayed out of trouble then he would have thrived there. But that was no more in his make-up than moving decisively was. As I understand it, Mac's reputation in the army was 2nd only to Lee. He was chosen to go observe the Crieman War as the US representative, and write a paper on what he saw and learned. And even though he left the army, when the war broke out, he was instantly recieved back in, and made a general. So I doubt that he would have been happy being a glorious Meigs.
Yeah, that's probably the case. Still, it would've been kinda cool, though, right up there with the potential Federal production of breech-loading small arms on a large scale from 1861 (entirely a possibility, but the dudes running ordnance acquisition couldn't get their heads out of their asses).
MikeL49NYVI said:
Halleck I am not so sure about. There are several historians who just do not care much for him, and the job he preformed for the country. I really have not much of an opinion, but I'd like to quote
Stephen Sears in the "Landscape Turned Red"
"Halleck was called "Old Brains" and seldom admiringly. A dumpy,paunchy,figure with stareing, fishlike eyes, he was quite without presence: his natural habitat was an office desk rather than a battlefield. yet in one respect the two men were much alike.(He is comparing halleck and Mac here) Both were versed in the rules of bureaucratic survival: be even cautious, deflect responsibility whenever possible, protect flanks and rear at all times from the hostile fire of critics."

So I am not sure how much he actually helped with anything, but I am amused at how he and Lincoln contrived to get Hooker to resign.
Halleck was basically a slightly poor man's McClellan as far as organizational abilities went, and he was a good check on the more ludicrous offensive plans of men like Hooker. (Hooker's proposal to attack Richmond in June 1863 being the most notably ridiculous.) When Grant went east, he and Stanton handled most of Grant's dirty work in this fashion. He was unsuited for field command, as the Corinth campaign made starkly clear
MikeL49NYVI said:
I do not agree with your Grant statement, if you are referring to the eastern theather of the war when you write "in the grand strategic sense". Grant's idea of latching outo Lee, and not letting go, while sending Sheridan into the Shenandoah Valley to destroy the supply of Lee's army I thnik is very sound and all about offensive actions. It was brutal war, especially to the mid-19th century civilian. But it was effective, and it won.
No, I was referring to the entire war when I wrote "in the grand strategic sense". It was very difficult for Grant to act as a general-in-chief when he was occupied with commanding the Army of the Potomac; coordination was messy, and during the Overland Campaign, the lack of effective telegraph communication with Washington made things even worse. Management of the other fronts suffered. It was less than ideal. The management of the Overland Campaign, I think, was, if not brilliant, exceedingly competent and decisive.
 
I don't think McCellan's with inflated opinion of his own worth would have been able to tolerate being appointed to such a relatively low key position as Meigs', although if his skills lay anywhere it would have been there.

Both you and Dachs have the same idea here, and I think you are both right. Lincoln apparently went to the Libary of Congress, and got out books on strategy to educate himself. I remember reading somewhere that some of his early efforts on strategy were pretty bad, but he was trying, and as you both said, with the best of intentions. (I think it was in Bruce Catton's Army of the Potomac 3 volume series.)
McCellan's private writings were very critical and insulting to the President. And his conduct during the 2nd Manassas campaign was actually treasonous, and he should have been arrested for it.

He also snubbed Lincoln who came to visit him at home whilst McCellan was ill. Apparently he kept the president waiting for him for 30 minutes and when Lincoln asked someone (a servant I presume) when he would be seen he was told that McCellan had gone to bed!
 
Even though I've learned about Lee and McClellan I'm still wondering what would have happened post war, and how long the war could last without Lee commanding the south
 
ı practically know nothing about the American Civil War , being stuck at Patrick Swayze's rendition of the Southern gentleman / officer . Have heard there were a couple of nice people down in the ranks . Meanwhile have had also some encounters with non-drinking Irish who are reputed to be the most evil of all and they have done much to convince me that a lack of discussion on the British connection to that bloody chapter of American internal affairs leaves the things somehow in the air . Whether the Redcoats were coming or not has been suggested to be intimately involved with all those strategic hiccups bedeviled the conduct of war . Exactly which decisions ı wouldn't know . Evil companions , if they can be called as such , make so much of those just arrived in the New World and immediately sent to the war , to be cut down for no good . Loosing such commentary , it still appears to me that it was USN that finally made a big enough impression to make London forget all those talk about the "Empire" . As related in Massie's Dreadnought , that bricksize book ı would have liked so much to emulate someday and unfortunately can't give a page number . Have always assumed there was quite a text in it though ı might well be mixing it with some other book . That would be why , in my twisted world , the Union could finally release the potential to fight or even to massacre ( as in Sherman's drive to the Sea (?) ) . In this context a Bluecoat Lee would have to wait quite a long time , even had he been Napoleon@USA . Though maybe he would have done something about the arms depots and taken measures against easy plunder , something he must have been much involved as a future Greycoat
 
Back
Top Bottom