Let put one myth to rest - Largesse for the Rich

[Chiteng]

You are both a lackey and a coward.
So everything is alright as long as you don't get caught? You seem to be confusing laws and cops with blackmail and criminals. Your concept of social order are no different from bullying by the powerful.

That would depend on the law. I dont believe in social order. I think all men are equal under the law, and God.

If by virtue of LUCK and fate, I happen to be blessed to be in the USA, I WILL attempt to preserve it from all who would try and despoil it. I make no apology for that =)

If you want to be a US citizen, you can apply for membership. Always with the understanding that the answer may be NO.

The people who bear responsibility for the poor and needy, are those that caused the condition. In most cases, their parents. Having children in an environment where they will be unable to thrive, is thoughtless. Demanding that 'others' pay for your errors, is inconsiderate and an imposition. Attempting to manipulate people by using their humane instincts against them is base. No one likes to be taken advantage of.

 

[innonimatu]

The people who bear responsibility for the poor and needy are... the poor and the needy! What a neat worldview you have! You must be so proud. Do you dream of Ayn Rand much also?

Just say that you're for castrating all the poor, while you're at it.

 

[Chiteng]

The people who bear responsibility for the poor and needy are... the poor and the needy! What a neat worldview you have! You must be so proud. Do you dream of Ayn Rand much also?

Just say that you're for castrating all the poor, while you're at it.

That would be a violation of both divine and human law.
However ignoring the fact that they cannot support children, is also cruel.

Why is it so abhorrent to recognize the obvious? The application of intelligence to evaluation of reality?

It is YOU that allows an expanding pool of disadvantaged, not me. I say, since you wont cooperate on a solution, you can support them.

 

[innonimatu]

That would be a violation of both divine and human law.
However ignoring the fact that they cannot support children, is also cruel.

Why is it so abhorrent to recognize the obvious? The application of intelligence to evaluation of reality?

It is YOU that allows an expanding pool of disadvantaged, not me. I say, since you wont cooperate on a solution, you can support them.

So despite your lip service to laws, you do want to castrate all the poor. Probably make a law to that effect... Thanks for the clarification.

 

[History_Buff]

Troll level = Viking

You gotta pay the troll toll if you want to get into that boy's soul.

 

[Atticus]

Moderator Action: This is the Chamber. Tone the spam down.

 

[Chiteng]

So despite your lip service to laws, you do want to castrate all the poor. Probably make a law to that effect... Thanks for the clarification.

Those are your words not mine.

I think for example there are many solutions.
Dont put words in my mouth =)

 

[peter grimes]

If by virtue of LUCK and fate, I happen to be blessed to be in the USA, I WILL attempt to preserve it from all who would try and despoil it. I make no apology for that =)

If you want to be a US citizen, you can apply for membership. Always with the understanding that the answer may be NO.

Do you view illegal immigration as despoiling the US? If No, then what's the big deal. As Downtown pointing out in a different thread, overstaying a visa or being here without documentation is a violation of law at the level of misdemeanor. If Yes, what exactly is being despoiled?

I've heard you mention sovereignty before, but could you explain how people not having the proper documentation is a threat to US sovereignty?

Last question - do you know anyone who has gone through the immigration process without a business sponsorship? It seems to me the barriers to becoming a citizen are enormous. Frankly, I'm not at all surprised people try and get away with being here misdemeanorly considering the enormous time, money, and bureaucratic capriciousness infecting the current system.

 

[Angst]

The people who bear responsibility for the poor and needy, are those that caused the condition. In most cases, their parents. Having children in an environment where they will be unable to thrive, is thoughtless. Demanding that 'others' pay for your errors, is inconsiderate and an imposition.

Why is it my error that I'm born by poor parents within an environment that does not allow me to thrive? Many wealthy people are making a living of a social system that's exploiting my parents and me. Why is it my fault? Why am I not allowed to change that?

 

[Traitorfish]

I'm not sure what the clog symbolises, but, screw it, CLOGS FOR ALL!

 

[ParkCungHee]

Boo!

Clogs for some, miniature red flags for others.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Do not tell me drugs are needed. I dont use them, I never have.

Excuse me, but I'm sure many nations would collapse without drugs.

 

[Chiteng]

Excuse me, but I'm sure many nations would collapse without drugs.

Why is it my error that I'm born by poor parents within an environment that does not allow me to thrive? Many wealthy people are making a living of a social system that's exploiting my parents and me. Why is it my fault? Why am I not allowed to change that?

No it is THEIR error. Not yours. As for the rest of your post, that is opinion. Could be endlessly debated. If your a citizen, by all means advocate anything you like. It is still a free country so far.

Do you view illegal immigration as despoiling the US? If No, then what's the big deal. As Downtown pointing out in a different thread, overstaying a visa or being here without documentation is a violation of law at the level of misdemeanor. If Yes, what exactly is being despoiled?

I've heard you mention sovereignty before, but could you explain how people not having the proper documentation is a threat to US sovereignty?

Last question - do you know anyone who has gone through the immigration process without a business sponsorship? It seems to me the barriers to becoming a citizen are enormous. Frankly, I'm not at all surprised people try and get away with being here misdemeanorly considering the enormous time, money, and bureaucratic capriciousness infecting the current system.

Sure I know several. I have always assumed that the onerous nature and expense of naturalization is deliberate. The intent is to discourage people from trying. The intent is to REDUCE the number of applicants. That is perfectly acceptable to me as an expression of public will. Every poll says the majority wants the immigration laws enforced. That includes the immigration system you apparently dont like.

If the people of the USA want to prevent extra-nationals from coming here, that is their right. AND, the world needs to accept it.

Anyone the come here illegally, is slapping the laws of the USA, and its citizens that back those laws, in the face. That is a direct challenge to Sovereignty

People keep screaming for comprehensive immigration reform. They dont seem to understand that it can also mean closing the loopholes and making it HARDER to enter the USA. Starting with an ironclad closure of the borders. It can mean increased deportations of the illegals here. It can means getting rid of the H1-B and L1 Visa

 

[Traitorfish]

No it is THEIR error. Not yours.

Why do you think that they should be held accountable for things that they've done in the past? Their past-self is gone, dead, and why should they suffer for the mistakes of a dead person?

 

[peter grimes]

Anyone the come here illegally, is slapping the laws of the USA, and its citizens that back those laws, in the face. That is a direct challenge to Sovereignty

This doesn't answer my questions. I'll repeat them:
1. Do you view illegal immigration as despoiling the US? If No, then what's the big deal? As Downtown point[ed] out in a different thread, overstaying a visa or being here without documentation is a violation of law at the level of misdemeanor. If Yes, what exactly is being despoiled by these misdemeanors?

2. could you explain how people not having the proper documentation is a threat to US sovereignty?

 

[peter grimes]

Anyone the come here illegally, is slapping the laws of the USA, and its citizens that back those laws, in the face. That is a direct challenge to Sovereignty

This doesn't answer my questions. I'll repeat them:
1. Do you view illegal immigration as despoiling the US? If No, then what's the big deal? As Downtown point[ed] out in a different thread, overstaying a visa or being here without documentation is a violation of law at the level of misdemeanor. If Yes, what exactly is being despoiled by these misdemeanors?

2. could you explain how people not having the proper documentation is a threat to US sovereignty?

 

[Angst]

No it is THEIR error. Not yours. As for the rest of your post, that is opinion. Could be endlessly debated. If your a citizen, by all means advocate anything you like. It is still a free country so far.

You blamed bad poverty for producing bad poverty, but realize that the poverty produced is due to socioeconomical heritage. Now, as a hypothetical bad product of this bad situation, you said I was to blame for producing children at all. Basically, when it's my parents' fault, you fault me for producing more children. Then it is my error due to my heritage. Inherited sin, so to say.

 

[warpus]

Anyone the come here illegally, is slapping the laws of the USA, and its citizens that back those laws, in the face. That is a direct challenge to Sovereignty

Your politicians were allowing illegals to settle in your country. Why do you think there are so many of them doing jobs that Americans just don't want to do?

You can't just turn a blind eye and even encourage something for 20-30 years and then suddely start moaning and groaning about it.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yeah, we tried that here and it ...

Oh wait, we're still trying that.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Sure I know several. I have always assumed that the onerous nature and expense of naturalization is deliberate. The intent is to discourage people from trying. The intent is to REDUCE the number of applicants. That is perfectly acceptable to me as an expression of public will. Every poll says the majority wants the immigration laws enforced. That includes the immigration system you apparently dont like.

If the people of the USA want to prevent extra-nationals from coming here, that is their right. AND, the world needs to accept it.

There can be no such thing as any right to initiate force against the innocent. The majority of immigrants are innocent. The real crime is forcing them to suffer or even die from poverty by denying them access to an open labor market.

Strict immigration laws cannot be justified as self defense, as they do more harm than good even to what they purport to defend.


Public opinion is not that hard to sway. It depends heavily on how questions are framed. Most people have trouble overcoming a status quo bias. Particularly when it comes to difficult questions and when people are not well informed of the merits of each choice, most people just choose whatever is presented as the default option. Supporting current laws is most commonly seen as the default, although the true default should be the state of nature where nothing is regulated.

Anyone the come here illegally, is slapping the laws of the USA, and its citizens that back those laws, in the face.

Perhaps, but there is nothing wrong with that. Those who advocate such a morally repugnant use of force against the innocent would-be immigrants deserve punishment much greater than a mere slap in the face.

That is a direct challenge to Sovereignty

There is no real value in defending national sovereignty. Sovereignty is a poorly defined and largely fictitious concept, as is the state itself. All rights are individual rights. In the real world, nations only exist as groups of individuals. The only valid justification for the institution of government is as a means to mitigate negative externalities and minimize the infringement of the rights of those individuals it purports to serve. Since the rights of different individuals are often in conflict, may be necessary to infringe somewhat on the rights of some; this however is only justified if doing so creates a balance that better serves the needs of the majority of its citizens. Even if we completely ignore the violence against immigrants and ascribe moral worth only to natural born citizens, tough immigration laws are not justified as they give a small advantage to a small demographic at the cost of a larger advantage to a much larger demographic of citizens.

People keep screaming for comprehensive immigration reform. They dont seem to understand that it can also mean closing the loopholes and making it HARDER to enter the USA. Starting with an ironclad closure of the borders. It can mean increased deportations of the illegals here. It can means getting rid of the H1-B and L1 Visa

I certainly understand it can mean that, which is why I am always careful to make it clear that I mean to say we need a liberalization of immigration law rather than such a morally repugnant course of action.