Let's get off it: FORUM SPLIT RAGE THREAD BUTTHURT 2013 EDITION

[BSmith1068]

If nobody uses the Chamber, what's the point of merging them?

 

[Terxpahseyton]

A different perception of the now-tavern.

 

[metatron]

A different perception of the now-tavern.

Uhm, we could continue on that path and randomly delete other forums to see whether it has any magical effect on the perception of the now-tavern.

I'd say merge. I don't see where any gain came from the split.

How does that matter? The status quo is what it is. You have to have a strong argument in favor of deleting the Chamber (cause that's what it is - stop calling it merging).
So far all arguments in the countless and endless debates come down to the above magical thinking, that if the Chamber were deleted, killed, wiped out either the moderation or the Tavern population would suddenly behave differently.
Never mind that both the active OT mod staff as well as the Chamber users are virtually a subset of Tavern users with close to 100% overlap between the three groups, of which the latter of course dwarfes the other two in numbers and activity.

So far absolutely no argument has been made that passes that test. All arguments are based on the idea that either the Tavern users or the mod staff will (as a result of a relationship that utterly defies causal logic) change their behavior or that deletion of the Chamber was intrically linked (which it isn't) with other policy changes that would affect such changes in behavior.

In short: You guys are engaging in wishful thinking. And you want to delete a useful forum over it.


No matter how much i feel you are not right, i can understand where you are coming from on some level.
In contrast to that i can only once more state my dissappointment that the populations of the other "minor" forums are standing idly by while this is happening.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Uhm, we could continue on that path and randomly delete other forums to see whether it has any magical effect on the perception of the now-tavern.

I don't believe in magic

 

[metatron]

My gut says yes, my brain says no (no for what metatron and Cheezy said).
I'll go with my gut. It is this feeling that it is better psychology for the OT if we have a reunification. A better spirit. Also I want more moderation than the Tavern currently has. But if the unified OT has Tavern moderation I'd still prefer that.

I don't believe in magic

Well...

"Quasi-magical thinking" describes "cases in which people act as if they erroneously believe that their action influences the outcome, even though they do not really hold that belief".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking

 

[Terxpahseyton]

But I don't think it is necessarily "erroneous". I think that the split provides both forums with a certain subtext, with a certain expectation, consequently a certain influence on their posting culture. People visit the Tavern. Not OT. They know that. The moderators know that and act accordingly.
Other sub-forums aren't about such a subtext but go with specific topics. The Chamber-and Tavern-split however was explicitly about different general posting cultures. It turned out that this split of culture gave use two forums both having their lives sucked out of them. That OT-posting culture is not adequately represented by this cultural split.
While I accept that the hope that a remerging does anything about it could very well be mere wish-full thinking, it is a better shot for improving things than just continuing with the split.
Desperate times call for desperate measures

 

[JollyRoger]

My only hesitation for a merge is I suspect that the moderation will be stricter than the current Tavern standard. The merge should be accompanied with full pardons from the permapoint system.

 

[Borachio]

I suspect a vested interest in that suggestion.

 

[Joecoolyo]

I was always against the split, and in fact, the splitting off of other forums as well (I'm looking at you A&E). Decentralization of forum topics only serves to kill those topics, reduce traffic, and hence, reduce discussions. Sure, now one section is "dedicated" to a certain topic, but what's the gain if only a small fraction of posters will bother to read it, let alone respond?

I'd much rather have an old-OT like system of centralized forums. The OT was the dumping place of all discussion, all topics allowed (to a degree) and everyone went to it. That way, if a thread was made on a certain topic, you'd know a majority of the community would read it, and eventually respond to it. This allowed for bountiful discussion to occur, rather or not it is productive or "serious" doesn't matter. I'd take a hundred voices and eyes reading a topic and giving their input, even though it may not be serious, over less than a dozen doing the same.

Sure, this is may lead to certain topics getting buried under other more popular ones, but, that's just the invisible hand at work, a free market esque thing. The discussions the community wants will be on page one, and the ones is doesn't want will fall back. There isn't anything wrong with that, there is no need to pseudo-bump certain discussion topics because a few sore people want to discuss them.

So re-merge, re-centralize, re-unite the OT and watch as not only the quality, but the amount of discussion increases. Severing off the limbs of the OT into topic specific forums has only ended up harming the OT. End the war between the forums and lets all become one giant happy forum again.

As a side note, to be completely honest, I see no difference in the modding standards not only between the two forums currently, but between the old OT and the new one. Before the split, I was one of the few who honestly didn't care, and was totally fine with how the mods operated, and I don't really see much of a change. So if we remerge, just keep doing what your doing and things will be alright. Maybe less modding for quality of discussion, that isn't needed, that's up to the community, and more just for flaming/rudeness/what you currently mod. But the modding on this forum is one of the things I'm the least bit worried about, it's the best I've seen on the internet, and I have no qualms.

 

[metatron]

You are confusing the production of post count with general utility of the forum.
For example: I very rarely post in A&E but frequently read stuff there and would not want to see it eliminated (there is no merging, there is only eliminating).

but what's the gain if only a small fraction of posters will bother to read it, let alone respond?

Threads in the small forums don't drop. Like, not at all. Cause there are so few of them.
The only reason for a thread not to be on page #1 would be because it's past the 60 day threshold.
I.e. you have 60+x days to freaking bother to push your mouse button a grand total of two extra times to check A&E or the Chamber or whatever.
If people can't be bothered to do that - ammounting to the outragous effort of opening such a forum 6 (six!) times a year but still feel they are entitled to having their opinion heard that is a good indication that their opinion will not be productive in any way.
Seriously: Who is that lazy will in all likelyhood produce mostly unreflected uninformed spam anyway.
The point about all the minor forums it that they have content that gets absolutely killed by that sort of posting and the attitude behind it.

rather or not it is productive or "serious" doesn't matter.

Says you. And you feel you should be able to enforce that notion on other people by a majority vote.

Sure, this is may lead to certain topics getting buried under other more popular ones, but, that's just the invisible hand at work, a free market esque thing.

How is the current situation not marketesque?
Lazy people don't open the Chamber.
Market.
Duh.

There isn't anything wrong with that, there is no need to pseudo-bump certain discussion topics because a few sore people want to discuss them.

There is no pseudo bump.
How is it a bump if you don't show up in the Chamber to experience it anyway?
You are grasping at straws here to justify your outragous believe that people who want another kind of conversation than you'd like should not be allowed to have it.
Cause:
a) You are awesome and have giant reproductive organs
b) You are in the majority and if you nag the mods long enough they'll give in and the "weak will suffer what they must".

So re-merge, re-centralize, re-unite the OT and watch as not only the quality, but the amount of discussion increases.

You have still not made anything coming even close to an argument supporting your hope that the latter would be a result of the former.

You want your taste legislated and you believe that will lead to a positive outcome because: See a) above.

Severing off the limbs of the OT into topic specific forums has only ended up harming the OT.

Oce more: Correlation fallacy much?

 

[Gucumatz]

I vote for hostile takeover

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Housecleaning:
Let's all respect that we have differing views on this topic and try not to be dicks to each other about it. Let's also try and not gang up on the mods. The decision was made a year ago to split the forums; it's in the past, so let's focus on the future and not on the past and how mad we are still about it and how mean/childish/foolish/dumb/asinine the mods were about the split last year.

Don't bring up April fools either. It doesn't matter when they announced it anymore because it happened, it's over, stop sobbing over a done deal. If we want to be constructive then we have to talk about tomorrow and not yesterday.

Have I mentioned we shouldn't talk about past actions at this point and instead focus on reasons why the split should be undone and not why it shouldn't have been done in the first place?

Edit: I forgot to put a Red Diamond symbol on this thread, but consider this a RD thread. Follow my rules or bannanation for you! (and no soup)

I don't know how to copy paste on my phone so insert link to george wallace 'segregation now segregation tommorrow segregation forever'

This april fools joke should be put to an end!

a) You are awesome and have giant reproductive organs

I guess this serves as another reminder why RD threads don't work...

 

[Silurian]

I guess this serves as another reminder why RD threads don't work...

This thread seems to be going ok to me.
the OP is being largely followed.

 

[metatron]

I guess this serves as another reminder why RD threads don't work...

1. To my knowledge RD threads are currently not a thing.
2. My goodness, what is there left to say if people base there arguments on the notion that a mouseclick inconveniences them and therefore they should be entitled to determine what other people get to do?

 

[Antilogic]

Hobbsman, had this not been an RD thread, I might have posted something like "BRB recruiting silent majority" or something like that. And left it there.

I was originally against the Split, but now I like it. I like the slow, better-thought-out dynamic of the Chamber. Tavern stuff moves faster (which is fine), but some topics require more thought before responding to, time which often bumps those threads to page 2 when they have to compete with faster threads.

Plus, I like the looser moderation of the Tavern, when you're up for a bit of ideological scrum instead of Socratic dialogue. Red Diamond never really solved that problem by itself. RD in that environment feels like Fun Police, as opposed to having a separate room with different expectations of conduct.

My problem with this is that it requires the OP up front to make the decision whether the discussion will be more serious or more fast-paced. Sometimes, a thread can turn serious or become joke fodder part-way through. I think some derails ultimately turn into interesting conversations that might not happen otherwise.

 

[Silurian]

1. To my knowledge RD threads are currently not a thing.
2. My goodness, what is there left to say if people base there arguments on the notion that a mouseclick inconveniences them and therefore they should be entitled to determine what other people get to do?

RD rules have been enforced by the mods within the last few months.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yup. I also think they never went away officially, they just fell into disuse.

 

[Kennigit]

I guess this serves as another reminder why RD threads don't work...

I didn't read the OP because I was on my phone for 3 minutes and the title (red diamondless) includes "rage thread butthurt 2013". Sorry, my fault.

but--as everyone who was on cfc before the split will remember--you can have perfectly legitimate discussions with trickles of joke posts. Or nonserious posts.

Also people were using the excuse in the other thread (with entirely serious discussion) that "well we never had a separate thread about the forum split" when Mise linked to ~5 threads in the past that served exactly that purpose, with polls, that provided feedback against the forum split.

I am butthurt since we have had plenty of threads about this on the past.

edit- I do acknowledge it IS my fault for not reading the OP, but considering I came to this thread after reading in the other thread, saw you copied pasted like the third response about pros and cons, I assumed that there was nothing new so I contributed my input.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

fair points

 

[JollyRoger]

I guess this serves as another reminder why RD threads don't work...

RD threads do not belong in the Tavern. Plus putting butthurt and all caps in the thread title sends a signal that it isn't really RD.