Let's get off it: FORUM SPLIT RAGE THREAD BUTTHURT 2013 EDITION

[bhsup]

How does that matter? The status quo is what it is. You have to have a strong argument in favor of deleting the Chamber (cause that's what it is - stop calling it merging).
So far all arguments in the countless and endless debates come down to the above magical thinking, that if the Chamber were deleted, killed, wiped out either the moderation or the Tavern population would suddenly behave differently.
Never mind that both the active OT mod staff as well as the Chamber users are virtually a subset of Tavern users with close to 100% overlap between the three groups, of which the latter of course dwarfes the other two in numbers and activity.

So far absolutely no argument has been made that passes that test. All arguments are based on the idea that either the Tavern users or the mod staff will (as a result of a relationship that utterly defies causal logic) change their behavior or that deletion of the Chamber was intrically linked (which it isn't) with other policy changes that would affect such changes in behavior.

In short: You guys are engaging in wishful thinking. And you want to delete a useful forum over it.


No matter how much i feel you are not right, i can understand where you are coming from on some level.
In contrast to that i can only once more state my dissappointment that the populations of the other "minor" forums are standing idly by while this is happening.

I don't really visit the rarefied air of the Chamber too often, so don't really feel it's my place to say whether it should be merged (rather, deleted as you quite rightly point out) or not. However, I just wanted to say that your post was probably the best one in the thread so far. Well written and damned compelling. I don't know if it is the Declaration of Independence-esque feeling I get from it (*) or what, but I just had to publicly give you a big thumbs up for a good post.

(*) - "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; "

 

[Joecoolyo]

Oh my, what a mess, I thought this style of posting died due to popular demand... very well, I'll try and respond.

You are confusing the production of post count with general utility of the forum.
For example: I very rarely post in A&E but frequently read stuff there and would not want to see it eliminated (there is no merging, there is only eliminating).

Threads in the small forums don't drop. Like, not at all. Cause there are so few of them.
The only reason for a thread not to be on page #1 would be because it's past the 60 day threshold.
I.e. you have 60+x days to freaking bother to push your mouse button a grand total of two extra times to check A&E or the Chamber or whatever.
If people can't be bothered to do that - ammounting to the outragous effort of opening such a forum 6 (six!) times a year but still feel they are entitled to having their opinion heard that is a good indication that their opinion will not be productive in any way.
Seriously: Who is that lazy will in all likelyhood produce mostly unreflected uninformed spam anyway.
The point about all the minor forums it that they have content that gets absolutely killed by that sort of posting and the attitude behind it.

You attribute laziness where there is none. People coalesce towards one forum, and tend to post in one forum, not due to laziness to open a second tab, but because that's where everyone is. Why bother posting in another forum if the people there are having the same discussion, but there is less of it to go around?

If they have content that gets killed because it isn't popular discussion material, then by golly let it die. No need to have a separate forum with three active threads just because someone happens to particularly love the topic. Merge it all.

There is no pseudo bump.
How is it a bump if you don't show up in the Chamber to experience it anyway?
You are grasping at straws here to justify your outragous believe that people who want another kind of conversation than you'd like should not be allowed to have it.
Cause:
a) You are awesome and have giant reproductive organs
b) You are in the majority and if you nag the mods long enough they'll give in and the "weak will suffer what they must".

Other kind of conversation? There is no other kind of conversation, its the same one. I read the tavern just as much as I read the chamber, its the same thing twice.

This elitist junk is another thing about the forum split which is just awful. Mods here always talked about preventing elitism, cliques from forming, what not. It's why we don't have karma, or whatever its called, and why spammy threads tend not to get post count. This whole "the chamber is for serious people and its where the other type of conversation takes place" just stinks of elitist junk. The conversations you're having in the chamber are no different than the ones in the tavern. They're just far slower and redundant.

If the forums merge, which they definitely should, the same discussions will occur as they do now in both forums. Except they'll be centralized, and actually discussed. If you think that's going away because the tavern is the poor person's chamber, or what have you, then you obviously don't remember the OT pre-split. Far more interesting, far more discussed, and the same quality of discussion in a single forum.

 

[metatron]

@V:
Thx, i appreciate it.

Although i do not feel that the Chamber has a rarified air (see below).

You attribute laziness where there is none. People coalesce towards one forum, and tend to post in one forum, not due to laziness to open a second tab, but because that's where everyone is. Why bother posting in another forum if the people there are having the same discussion, but there is less of it to go around?

If they have content that gets killed because it isn't popular discussion material, then by golly let it die. No need to have a separate forum with three active threads just because someone happens to particularly love the topic. Merge it all.

You are the one who is making erroneous attributions.

My claim is that the Chamber has utility as a direct result of the low traffic.
Many threads there - not just 3 - thrive for no other reason than the low traffic.
Moving these threads to the Tavern will kill most of them. The utility is lost.
Nothing is actually added to the Tavern in return.

Your choice is to either invest an extra click to visit these threads, or not have them at all.

Other kind of conversation? There is no other kind of conversation, its the same one. I read the tavern just as much as I read the chamber, its the same thing twice.

This elitist junk is another thing about the forum split which is just awful. Mods here always talked about preventing elitism, cliques from forming, what not. It's why we don't have karma, or whatever its called, and why spammy threads tend not to get post count. This whole "the chamber is for serious people and its where the other type of conversation takes place" just stinks of elitist junk. The conversations you're having in the chamber are no different than the ones in the tavern. They're just far slower and redundant.

If the forums merge, which they definitely should, the same discussions will occur as they do now in both forums. Except they'll be centralized, and actually discussed. If you think that's going away because the tavern is the poor person's chamber, or what have you, then you obviously don't remember the OT pre-split. Far more interesting, far more discussed, and the same quality of discussion in a single forum.

It is another kind of conversation simply because threads get bumped. Threads are sustained. Just as in the other minor forums.

That has nothing to do with elitism. Yet another huge misunderstanding on your part.
What you are referring to (with the elitism) is the original concept the mods had in mind when the split was implemented. Everybody agrees that that concept is largely disfunct and has been for a long time.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

RD threads do not belong in the Tavern. Plus putting butthurt and all caps in the thread title sends a signal that it isn't really RD.

My error has been noted, however that doesn't excuse someone for launching personal attacks based on genital size and percieved attributes.

 

[JollyRoger]

My error has been noted, however that doesn't excuse someone for launching personal attacks based on genital size and percieved attributes.

The thread title could be construed as some in this forum taking on too large of a genital size in a certain orifice.

 

[metatron]

My error has been noted, however that doesn't excuse someone for launching personal attacks based on genital size and percieved attributes.

You can complain all you want. I am not going to apologise.

Who feels they should campaign for the deletion of a forum simply because they themselves don't grasp its utility can very well deal with a bit of a head wind.

I did just that to the A&E crowd once (and that was way less serious, much more speculative). There i apologised - for wanting to abolish what i merely failed to appreciate.
The merger advocates should cease, dissist and do the same.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I change my vote to other:
Make Tavern just Off-Topic and make Chamber a section of OT called "Endurance section" or something. So still scrap the split, but keep what good the Chamber has to offer alive.

 

[BSmith1068]

...by which you mean keep the split, just rename it?

 

[JollyRoger]

Merge the Chamber into forum games.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

...by which you mean keep the split, just rename it?

On the surface, yes, absolutely. But that entails dropping the aspiration of what the Tavern is supposed to be.

 

[Quackers]

Remerge the two, shatter the failed moderatorship for good.

Lets have a return to 2001 when Thunderfall reigned and all good Thunderfallrians were content.

 

[timtofly]

Not sure if you are a good traditionalist, or a failed evolutionist.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

My problem with this is that it requires the OP up front to make the decision whether the discussion will be more serious or more fast-paced. Sometimes, a thread can turn serious or become joke fodder part-way through. I think some derails ultimately turn into interesting conversations that might not happen otherwise.

There is nothing stopping those conversations from arising, and then being split off into their own threads. The purpose of this restrictive environment being the maintenance of a type of thread, not the restriction to a type of thread. When such conditions arise, those fast-paced and lighthearted devolutions can be divorced from the parent thread and the style and nature of the original is preserved. Should the blithe incarnations become more popular than the originals, then so be it*. But the poster should be able to preserve a certain air about the topic, if they wish, and that ought not be denied to them, especially since there are so many ways for us to work out changes of the mind on the subject.

And I believe that in the reverse, where the thread begins whimiscal and becomes serious, moderators will happily impose RD restrictions should the OP request it.

*aka, FREE MARKET SOLVES EVERYTHING

 

[azzaman333]

All I'll say is merging the Tavern and the Chamber won't solve any of OT's problems.

 

[Tsoate]

Cutlass has posted a petition in site-feedback for those that discussed things in this thread, they might want to head there.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=509108

 

[Rashiminos]

Why was it bad?

See Joecoolyo's posts about elitism.

Let's all respect that we have differing views on this topic and try not to be dicks to each other about it. Let's also try and not gang up on the mods. The decision was made a year ago to split the forums; it's in the past, so let's focus on the future and not on the past and how mad we are still about it and how mean/childish/foolish/dumb/asinine the mods were about the split last year.

I wouldn't be too eager to blame the mods since it wasn't really them who gave the idea succor. The past is still relevant because a large collection of instigators still haven't learned anything. The split didn't work out as they intended (after the RD badge also did not work as intended), and now they want the old standards back (which they were unhappy with originally).

Have I mentioned we shouldn't talk about past actions at this point and instead focus on reasons why the split should be undone and not why it shouldn't have been done in the first place?

instigators still haven't learned anything.

Besides, if you want us to forget about that past, I am willing to forget that such a thing as the merged OT ever existed or aspired to standards apart from the Tavern.

I guess this serves as another reminder why RD threads don't work...

There's a large degree of overlap between the Chamber and RD "crowds."

I would consider not contributing to that other forum to be a better idea. Let the same old bones bounces{sic} the same stale ideas around until they rot. When they resume wanting vibrancy and diversity, let them come back here.

Not the thread I thought it was in, but it'll do.



Edit: Nice war of OT aggression tag. Wondering who should be setting terms?