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Let's Play: Deity BC Space: Strategies from a 10 year veteran

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by WastinTime, Sep 10, 2016.

  1. Kid R

    Kid R Chieftain

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    Seems like you could dodge prereqs if national wonders were capturable, like get an Oxford without building any universities or even having education? Capture probabilities for national wonders in the XML are given as zero, although the code does bypass that dice roll for recaptured cities and gifted/traded cities. Can't see anything that checks prereqs, I guess the thinking would be you probably built it yourself if you're recapturing the city. Having said that I also can't see anything about it being the revolt that destroys buildings rather than just the city changing hands so I'm probably reading it wrong :dunno:

    Edit: Test: A city has 10 culture. Gift it to Hatty. WB hermitage for her so she's getting 4 culture per turn there. Capture immediately, hermitage stays. After 1 turn, stays, 2 turns, stays, 3 turns, hermitage is gone because her 12 culture in the city now beats its original owner's 10. Prediction: Roosy's Moais will fall into the sea on capture.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
  2. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    The information is valid and is supported by testing and XML-inspection, although it depends upon one's definition of the words "Cultural Building." Let's come up with a better term, that of "Buildings which cannot be Captured."

    Shorter answer: Unless you have some City Culture in the City in which Moai Statues exist, which you get from ending a turn when owning a City in which you are earning Culture in the City, or from a Spy's Spread Culture Mission, you will have a 0% chance of retaining Moai Statues upon City capture. If you have enough City Culture in the captured City relative to the current owner of the City to be able to capture the City with 0 turns of City Revolt, you will keep Moai Statues (assuming that you don't have Moai Statues in another City). Otherwise, it's a dice roll chance of keeping Moai Statues upon City capture out of the percentage of the amount City Culture that you have in the City relative to the amount of City Culture that the current owner has in the City.

    Longer answer:
    Buildings which cannot be Captured:
    A] Monument (assuming that you do not own Stonehenge, in which case it's not actually the Building surviving but a free fake Building appearing which will disappear upon losing Stonehenge or upon obsoleting Stonehenge)
    B] Library
    C] University
    D] Theatre
    E] Temple
    F] Monastery
    G] Cathedral

    Note that this list includes Unique Buildings of the same type. Since a Monument cannot be captured, the Egyptian Obelisk, the Ethiopian Stele, and the Native American Totem Pole also cannot be captured.

    All other Buildings have the potential to be captured.

    Note that you can verify this info for yourself by looking in the XML:
    {Civ 4 Installation}\Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\BuildingsCIV4BuildingInfos.xml
    In that file, a value of:
    <bNeverCapture>1</bNeverCapture>
    means that a Building cannot be captured. However, these Buildings will still survive a Culture Flip and will survive when a City is gifted. I assume that these Buildings will also survive when a City is assigned via The Apostolic Palace, but I don't have much experience with that case, so I cannot say with 100% certainty.


    As for other types of Buildings, the percentage chance of a Building being captured is the combination of the <iConquestProb> value (found in the same XML file) and your City Culture percentage for the City, which, from what I can tell, only matters as the percentage of the amount of City Culture that you have in the City relative to the amount of City Culture that the current owner of the City has in the City, ignoring City Culture from other past owners of the City.

    Culture is a bit tricky as there are both City Culture and plot Culture.

    From my understanding of the two:
    A] City Culture comes from you owning the City at the end of a turn and the City gaining Culture at the end of your turn
    B] Plot Culture also accumulates when you earn City Culture, but it generally accumulates at a greater rate, since you get a bonus 20 plot Culture in the City Centre square at the end of each turn for every amount of Cultural Border expansions that your City has undergone. I.e. If you have a Monument and a Palace and are making 3 City Culture per turn, but your Cultural Borders have expanded twice due to you reaching 100 Culture on Normal Game Speed, you'll earn 3 City Culture and 3 + 2 * 20 = 3 + 40 = 43 plot Culture
    C] In the Beyond the Sword expansion, a Great Artist Culture Bomb (aka a Great Work) that was bombed from another nearby City will not increase the City Culture of Cities within range of the Culture Bomb (although it will obviously increase the City Culture in the City in which you performed the Culture Bomb, as it's City Culture that is used for the Legendary City level that we attempt to achieve in 3 Cities in a Cultural Victory). Put another way: A Culture Bomb in BtS will not help you to reduce the amount of City Revolt upon City capture of nearby AI Cities that were affected by the Culture Bomb. This fact means that Culture Bombing in BtS does not help to increase the odds of capturing Buildings in nearby AI Cities. Although I haven't tested to be certain, I think that this behaviour was a change from Warlords and Vanilla, since Culture Bombs were much more powerful there, likely because Culture Bombs there affected both plot Culture and City Culture
    D] In BtS, a Spy's Spread Culture Mission will affect City Culture (I'm not sure whether or not it also affects plot Culture). This fact means that the Spread Culture Mission is BtS' (likely, but not confirmed with testing) answer to the Vanilla/Warlords Culture Bomb, in that it will reduce the amount of City Revolt upon City capture
    E] What we see when hovering our mouse over top of a City in the main game view and when looking at the City Nationality bar at the bottom left of the City screen is plot Culture
    F] Below the City Nationality bar is a Culture bar, which indicates your City Culture in the City
    G] Only the current owner of the City has their City Culture shown in the City screen, so you'll have to perform the math yourself in order to figure out the percentage of City Culture that you own in a given City, since the game doesn't display this information


    Some general rules:
    i. World Wonders have <iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>, so they will survive a City Revolt
    ii. Great-People-built Buildings, such as Academies, Holy Shrines, and Military Academies, have <iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>, so they will survive a City Revolt
    iii. Many Buildings have a <iConquestProb>0</iConquestProb> value, including Moai Statues, which means that if the City goes into City Revolt upon capture and you have no City Culture in the City, that Building will get destroyed
    iv. Some Buildings have a value greater than 0 but less than 100, such as Granaries and Terraces with <iConquestProb>66</iConquestProb>, so if the City goes into City Revolt, the Building has a chance to survive
    v. If the City does not go into City Revolt when the City gets captured, due to your Cultural dominance in terms of City Culture (plot Culture does not matter), all Buildings which are NOT in the "Buildings which cannot be Captured" list are eligible to survive
    vi. If the City does go into City Revolt when a City gets captured, the percentage of the Building surviving can be greater than its <iConquestProb> value (up to a maximum of 100) if you have some City Culture in the City. The greater the amount of your City Culture in the City relative to the amount of the City Culture belonging to the current owner of the City (i.e. the current owner just before you captured the City), the greater the chance that Buildings with an <iConquestProb> below 100 will have of surviving. From my understanding, you'll be able to push Granaries/Terraces up to a 100% chance of survive, and other Buildings with a <iConquestProb> value of 0 will have a chance to survive based on a dice roll relative to your City Culture percentage (not plot Culture percentage) in the City


    In testing, I have seen some interesting things:
    a) Captured World Wonders that you did not build do not produce Culture for your Civ, which most of us know and makes sense, since the conqueror didn't actually erect the World Wonder. That's not the interesting part, but is the basis for why some other items are interesting
    b) Most captured National Wonders that you did not build do produce Culture if they survive through the capturing of the City, but Moai Statues built by another player does not produce Culture for you, perhaps due to it being added in the Warlords expansion by a different programmer than were the original National Wonders. If you built Moai Statues and recapture it, you will get its Culture. Other than the Moai Statues exception, think of it as the National Wonder switching its national identity, but a World Wonder retaining its original national identity
    c) Captured National Wonders that you did not build which retain their Culture (examples include the Heroic Epic, the National Epic, and the Globe Theatre) will retain their "doubled Culture" value if they have existed for 1000 years
    d) Captured Castles that you did not build retain their +1 Culture
    e) National Wonders can be captured regardless of whether you meet the pre-requisites for building those National Wonders. For example, I was able to capture the Globe Theatre with 0 Theatres in my empire, and the normal pre-requisite is 4 Theatres for Duel maps, then scaled up for map size, and set to 1 for a One-City Challenge game
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
    Kaitzilla likes this.
  3. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Great research Dhoom. Added to the table of contents.

    MarbleStart T149-160 Machinery

    I covered a lot of this in bits and pieces as I was playing. Here's a recap:

    Spoiler :
    Mansa chose Construction(90) (after I sold him Mono -- which I got from Liz).
    Yes, 90 turns. That's how long it will take him at his current research rate.
    I might have to turn off EPs on him so he won't spend resources putting EPs on me (which I did). I'm not sure I care to see what he researches next even if he finishes that in half the turns. (edit: I'll keep enough on him to see what he picks after Construction)
    I think I'm also going to give him one of my Fur cities to boost his research (which I did)

    I found Liz (due West). I have +3 trade rts to all 4 of her cities, and resource trades are available.

    Peter is just north of her, same landmass. He's going to get copper in less than 10 turns.

    T152 (just 4 turns later)
    -308gpt +284bpt

    Mansa does Moai (not Mids)



    and the newest info....

    T157
    Roosevelt
    sword is spotted. He got Iron when I wasn't looking.

    T158
    Darius
    gets CoL
    Not sure how I'm going to get that.

    T159

    Vicky has 70. Seems like a good time to give her Mono for 70 + archery.
    I usually avoid archery until it's needed for HorseArchers. Or avoid it the entire game, but next turn I'll have the option to build Xbows.

    T160 Machinery.
    Aesthetics (4)

    Mansa
    is down to 35 turns on Construction, but it was 29 a couple turns ago, so not sure what he's doing. I probably should have ended his war with Lincoln.

    This screenshot shows the exploring I've done west.



    Here's a situation that's never happened to me before:Note Lincoln's capital is far right in the screen shot, size 2, light blue coastal city
    I need to declare war on Lincoln just to pass 2 settlers thru his waters.
    In exactly 4 turns our peace treaty ends. That is also exactly when my galley from the south and 2 settlers from the north can get there. I don't want to settle up north. I don't really want to own his city, but I've got to pass workboats, etc thru there. In contrast is Justin's capital which I can sail around. I actually wouldn't mind owning that some day (corn, sugar, cow, gems)

    RE: exploring.
    I only intended to explore close by for 2-seafood sites, but I stumbled on NewCastle (white, English) and had to find the rest of England and then Russia. Now I'm on a mission to circumnavigate. It's a shame I didn't think to bring along a unit to help de-fog the map. Scouting failure #2 :blush:

    Here's the SE corner w/ dot map. Hot Pink cities will be settled ASAP (before HangingG). White city sites eventually. I hope to keep going east to help circumnaviate faster.



    Empire summary
    21 Cities, 22 workers
    no change to either! :blush: This is a big drawback of Large (compared to Huge)...no one left to attack. I want to leave my research crew alone for a while. I'd kill Peter if he wasn't so far away. I'm no longer tempted to mess with Roosevelt since his Moai won't survive. Istanbul (Ottoman's old capital) gives me access to the east ocean.

    79 population

    20 Terraces
    still just 4 lighthouses
    7 forges!

    2563:gold: -306gpt (when building no wealth)

    314bpt (building no research)
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  4. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Chieftain

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    It's not an assumption -- this is something that was worked out and proven a long time ago, but has apparently been lost to the mists of time. The only relevant quantity is the efficiency of conversion. Here's some math.

    Define the variables
    • G = gold per turn you get from commerce at 0% slider
    • B = beakers per turn you get from commerce at 100% slider
    • M = gold per turn you need to generate from this segment of your economy to cover maintenance
    • H = hammers per turn you have available to divert into wealth or research (after production multipliers)
    • W = hammers per turn devoted to wealth
    • R = hammers per turn devoted to research
    • S = your average slider is set to (100 * S)%

    To cover your maintenance costs, you need
    • M = W + (1-S) G
    and the science you produce is
    • R + S B
    and, of course, W+R = H.

    Solving the two equations and plugging into the science total, the science you get from this segment of your economy is
    • H - B(M-G)/G + W((B-G)/G)
    The first two terms are fixed, which makes it clear that if B>G, you want to make W as big as possible (i.e. build wealth), and if B<G you want to make W as small as possible (i.e. build research).

    ---

    Now, there's surely a *correlation* between the slider position and whether it's better to build wealth or research:

    • If you have an economy that is running a high slider, you are probably going to build libraries/observatories/universities/academies and ignore markets/grocers/banks, and having a big beaker multiplier and small gold multiplier are the conditions that make building wealth preferable
    • If you have an economy that is running a low slider, you are probably going to build markets/grocers/banks and ignore libraries/observatories/universities/academies, and having a big gold multiplier and small beaker multiplier are the conditions that make building research preferable
    but the point is that it's those multipliers that actually decide which is better, not the slider position itself.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
  5. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    @MyOtherName

    EDIT: Did you notice that your conclusions actually support what I said in my original post on the topic? It seems ironic that I came to the same conclusion many years ago in an old CFC thread. I was simply expanding it in this thread, trying to adapt it to how it might be used with WBE (strong 100% research slider focus) and in this Space Colony game or others like it.

    EDIT: Your mathematical proof is showing something that is of wide application beyond this thread; in my opinion, it deserves its own thread. Perhaps, you could start a new thread in S & T or even make it into a S &T/War Academy Article?

    Let's try to keep this thread focused on WastinTime's BC Space Colony attempt. I acknowledge that my response your previous post on this topic (Building Wealth versus Building Research) was probably straying from this focus.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
  6. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    As I reveal more and more double-food islands, I crave more settlers (before HangingGardens).
    Looking around my empire, I can quickly get one more from (triple food/Oasis/Lake) Lisbon.
    The only other city that could make one in less than 10 turns is NewYork, size 5. Recall NewYork is Oracle+GLH and is building a library to run 2 sci for a GP for golden age #1.

    New idea: kills a few birds with one stone...

    6->3 whip NewYork for a settler in about 7 turns.
    Forget the library, forget ever working a scientist here.

    Use Music GArt for golden age #1.

    Berlin can now produce a 100% GE at only 300gpp :goodjob:

    NewYork, with it's big headstart on gpp, will produce an early non-GS for golden age #2.
    Could be 600gpp, but I might get an Education GS first and/or the NationalEpic city might want to go early so it can go again.

    Makes it easy to choose Aes, Lit, Music next instead of Calendar.
    That puts NationalEpic on the failgold list.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
  7. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Speaking of the failgold lineup...

    Colossus - 170 will probably only buy me 10 turns of research. I'll have to squeeze some more in and stretch this to last 15 turns with Q whipping, building a tiny bit of wealth, tech trades for cash, etc.

    I've been putting some into Moai, but my coastal cities have been over-taxed with forge-Colossus. I need more time for them to recover and make Moai a big payoff. And now I know I can't trigger the payoff by capturing Roosevelt (or Mansa's) capital. So Moai is not 180 as I thought it might be, but I probably have to stress my coastal cities to get Moai out T185. I have no idea where to eventually put it.
    Spoiler :
    Lisbon? no, it should probably go somewhere that won't be a GP farm. Water tiles are 2f2h5c in a golden age. Good time to review the coastal cities.
    NewYork might be nice (put GPro points with Oracle/GLH), but no forests. I could probably pull it off if I skipped the settler here. :think: maybe I can beat this city senseless and get it out (save it for another post)
    Maybe Paris. Or Istanbul. Or Munich. Anyway, I guess there are options.

    I drifted off topic there...


    Temple of Art. usually goes next. T180-T200. I've been putting a good amt in this, but I think I need to have all non-coastal cities dump in here hard.

    Mids is now also off my list. AI might get this for me T190-T210. If they don't, I'll have to build it T210.

    NationalEpic would probably not get built til ~T210
    Parthenon T210-220
     
  8. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Projecting where my empire size is going and comparing to the 10M game

    The real difference I'm seeing compared to Huge is that I didn't capture any cities in the last 10 turns and I don't see getting any more for ~30 turns. And about then, I'll probably want to kill almost everyone cus they'll have done all the research I can hope for. It's frustrating having nothing to do with my army knowing soon I'll wish I had 3-4 armies. If I could capture at least 10 cities over the next 30 turns, that's ~1000:gold: It hurts not having that income, but it's also ruining my snowball effect. I'm compensating by definitely building more settlers than ever, but it's still depressing.

    Let me check the 10M game:
    T200
    26 cities (I built 6 settlers), 20 workers, 680bpt researching Edu

    T225
    31 cities

    T250, 1000 BC
    42 cities (of which I built 8 settlers)

    OK, I guess I'm pretty far ahead and won't fall behind any time soon. I keep forgetting it's only T160
    As you should remember, I'm at 21 cities and I should be at 30 cities before T175
     
  9. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Current war plan then is to gather Xbows and ship them over to Liz/Peter. I need a foothold over there.

    I'm just thinking out loud here...
    My axe/healer should go there too, and I'll try to get another GG/healer by attacking Peter. That healer should be better be born on the mainland. If I circumnavigate by T180, that's about when the last boats would load up. It takes 8 turns to cross the ocean--10 turns to go farther north and attack Peter ~T190. (Add 6 turns to that if I can't get +1 circumnav)



    I didn't look at whether I can get the xbows built and moved-on-land in time to load T180, but this is the rough draft. The way I plan a war like this is to figure out how many boats I will have that can get there in time. They'll be carting around settlers until T170-175 or so, then return to the mainland for final pickup.
    :think: maybe this is the wrong approach--a huge, surprising water landing.

    Alternatively, I can attack Peter from Liz's land, so I don't have to drop 8-10 units (4-5 boats) simultaneously, moving all boats ~30 water tiles.

    Instead, I set up a galley-chain and drop off 2 units every other turn. This way most of the galleys don't need to return to the mainland after last settler/worker dropoff. They just form a chain 3 tiles apart. The circumnav boat should be able to join the western end of the chain. Two new units from the mainland can board 1 turn and disembark in London the next turn--and move that same turn. :goodjob:

    I would need 6 galleys w/3 moves and my one 6-movement galley that I decided to make. That would be a 24 tile span. That's 7 total galleys instead of 4-5.
    But I think this plan is way better cus I'll be able to keep supply lines running and send Cats if needed. There's no way I'd get Construction and build/load a Cat by T180.

    I would also be able to bring the Healer or new GG born back to the mainland in 1 turn.

    I'll keep the 6-mover galley next to my mainland in case there is a lull in troop exports, and I need to settle or move some workers around quickly.

    (I'm out for the long weekend, so don't expect much progress. However, I feel like I have my plans set and should be able to play a lot next week. I'd like to at least get to Colossus - HangingGardens and then report my beaker and gold rates...and my population :drool:)
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  10. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Excellent progress WastinTime! :D
    I definitely think Huge map size is best, but it takes forever to generate a good map.

    My weeklong attempt at BC space with Darius/Terra/Huge blew up in my face...
    Spoiler :
    Amazing production capital!
    Spoiler :
    Horse in the capital BFC!


    Russia had good land.
    Spoiler :


    Vicky was a pushover.
    Spoiler :


    Gandhi spread Hinduism to all my cities and would hopefully build a shrine some day with his Philo trait.
    Spoiler :


    Every 10 turns DeGaulle would generously donate multiple Workers, so I had more Workers than Cities for once. :crazyeye:
    Spoiler :




    Washington traded Code of Laws at Friendly with 2 city gifts (Liberate)
    Spoiler :


    Roosevelt was a pushover.
    Spoiler :


    Hatty was building Pyramids for me with my Stone and Mono gifts.
    Spoiler :


    AI tech rate seems slower than Big+Small, but there are more forests hmm. :think:


    And with Chopped Oracle in a bunch of cities, I missed free Civil Service by 1 turn!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad:
    My capital was all set for 1 Swordsman (5xp) per turn with Heroic Epic too. :cry:
    Spoiler :






    The WBE economy is tantalizing. :egypt:
    I still haven't digested what enormous amounts of fail gold means yet.
    Having a hard time balancing it with other empire demands.


    30 cities at 1750BC, unreal! :popcorn:
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  11. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Wow, that is (was?) a great game. I'd still play it.
    So what if you lost one tech. On the bright side, you didn't 'waste' 450h on it :p. Yea, you missed a great bargain, but shouldn't stop you from BC space. This would be at least the 3rd time you stole my thunder, Kait :spank:
     
  12. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Yea, it's really not like anything I've done before or planned for. My expenses will probably jump from -300 to -500gpt at 30 cities. Not sure I can keep up with that, but the way I see it, each new city should be able to almost pay for itself. So as long as I can manage to keep -0gpt at 100% wealth, I won't STRIKE.

    A 30 city HangingGardens + Colossus should ensure I stay above water.
     
  13. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Chieftain

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    I felt the explanation could be made better by adding an addendum that explains why the heuristic gives good results despite looking at the wrong things. I'll work on making a strategy article to recap the ideas.

    On the off chance that WT won't be able to keep the slider at 100%, the relevant question is whether WT will build markets/grocers for the happiness/health -- I assume not but I don't really know what HOF space races look like (especially when they're using a new strategy!).

    In a 'normalish' game, I think the main window where a high slider empire might actually benefit more from building research than building wealth is if cities have just libraries for science, but built markets and grocers for their happiness and health. If that bumps the average gold multiplier up enough, then building research is right.

    ---
    Now that I look, the main idea is already on the front page at strategy articles: http://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gold-beakers-and-deficit-research.242530/
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
  14. TheNoseKnows

    TheNoseKnows Chieftain

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    What does WBE stand for?
     
  15. ikotomi

    ikotomi Chieftain

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    How does 30 cities by the time hanging gardens gets built compare to other games played with these conditions up until now? 30 pop on top of all that fail gold your planning sounds like an absolutely insane power spike.
     
  16. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    WBE = Wonder Bread Economy

    This economy turns almost all to most whip (bread = food) overflow (ideally the maximum overflow possible from each whip) and forest chops into world/national wonders with the Industrious trait and resource multipliers for fail wealth (gold). With the Industrious trait (+50%), Forge (+25%), Organized Religion (+25%) and a resource multiplier (+100%), one gets a total of +200% or 3 x base hammers invested back in wonder fail wealth (1H -> 3W).

    On top of that, whipping with a Granary provides over 2 hammers for each unit of food. So, with WBE, we get a food -> wealth conversion rate of over 6x (1F -> 6W); in practice it will probably be very close to 7x. Thus, 1F -> 7W.

    The whole point of generating huge amounts of wealth is so we can be at 100% research slider in the research phase of the game with huge numbers of cities, which makes Bpt really huge compared to all other BtS economies.

    This means (WBE) of generating wealth is so much better than the alternatives, it is clear that we want to change nearly everything about our game decisions to maximize WBE wealth generation.

    This includes how we value citizen plots in the city BFC (a riverside grassland farm is valued quite highly in WBE for the normally considered meager +1F it provides for example). City builds are chosen not just for their intrinsic value, but for how easily they can (be set up to) provide maximum overflow from 2P (and even 1P) whips going into wonders. The choices of city sites (both captured and settled) are driven by their excess food potential (maximum whip overflow -> wonders) and the number of nearby forests that can be chopped into fail wealth wonders. No doubt there are other areas of the game that we can optimize to maximize WBE wealth output as well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
  17. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    I wouldn't build HG without at least 20 cities.
    My score game had ~25 cities but it was turn 193.
     
  18. diegobueno

    diegobueno Chieftain

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    @WastinTime a question for you, the gold for fail gold on WB economy get increased by any market, etc?
    keep the good work :thumbsup:
     
  19. Folket

    Folket Chieftain

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    Location:
    Sweden
    Markets do not help. You get 1 gold for 1 hammers always. But you can have stuff that helps you get more hammers into the wonder, like forge, marble/stone and industrious.
     
    diegobueno likes this.
  20. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2007
    Messages:
    7,920
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2016
    Noble Zarkon likes this.

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