Let's Read the Bible Once

[El_Machinae]

Try Revelation! It's zany!

 

[Borachio]

Nah! It's just bonkers drivel, imo. The guy who wrote it was either having a nervous breakdown or... I don't know what.

(Of course, I realize there are a great many references to abstruse (is that the right word?) metaphysical and ancient matters, but honestly I can't be bothered to decipher it. If someone can't be bothered to speak clearly, I'll listen for a bit and then give up.)

 

[TrafficJam]

Interesting...

This was in reply to me saying that if God was evil he might just make up a bunch of random rules in order for us to get into heaven (or something like that). I assume you think this is intersting because that's what you think Christianity is? I'll grant you that Christianity has lots of laws in it. But the point of the Law is not to set up guidelines that, if you follow them, you can make it to heaven. The point of the Law is to prove to everyone that they can't follow the Law and that they need a Savior.

The fact that Christians try to implement the commands of the Bible in their life is not an evidence that they are trying to work their way into heaven. It's an evidence that they love Jesus who said, "if you love me, keep my commandments."

I am not of the view that the sacrifice of a god is really a less ominous part of the plot than the more directly brutal stance of the old testament god towards his believers.
Why would a god sacrifice itself? It seems to me that this was mostly meant as a trigger for even more misguided sense of guilt from the people believing in this story, rather than a direct example of love from the deity towards them.

I guess that makes sense from the perspective of someone who believes... well, I won't presume to know what you might believe. But I think it's probably safe to assume that you don't believe what I do - that I am a sinner who can't do anything to help himself because of it, and that God provided a way for me to be forgiven of my sins.

There is just too much death in the religious storyline, starting with the pitiful jewish religion of the Judaic Law and the old testament, and expanding with christianity and other such developments. Although even christianity seems filled with light when compared to the Judaic law...

There is a lot of death, yes. I supoose this is to demonstrate to us the serious predicament in which we find ourselves. Death is a punishment for sin. If you don't want that, but would rather have life (not immortality, of course), then you must accept the gift that Christ offers through his death on the cross (Romans 6:23).

I totally don't think that God is evil, given that I don't believe that he exists in the first place, so I'm not arguing the "Maybe God is evil" angle because I actually think it's true.. I'm arguing it because you just don't know and are forced to jump to conclusions like all the ones you're just making now

...

Isn't that where faith comes in? A believer will have faith that God is good even though the exact opposite could be true. He will have faith that the Bible isn't a deception by an evil entity but rather the honest and true word of God.

Yes, I can agree with that. Faith certainly does play a part in it. Proving God's existence and his goodness can't really be done, just like disproving it can't be done. So I make assumptions based on what I believe to be true. I would just hope that others of differing opinions can be intellectually honest enough to admit that I'm not the only one who makes assumptions based on beliefs.


On a somewhat unrelated topic , I wonder how the OP is doing with his Bible reading. What's your strategy for reading? Just start at the beginning and plow your way through, or do you have another method? I know there are some resources out there that can give a good reading schedule that will give you some variety so you don't get bogged down too much in all the laws and geneologies of the first few books, which is probably why many people give up reading before too long if they just start at page 1 and go straight through. Wow, that last sentence was probably a bit of a run-on.

 

[El_Machinae]

Proving God's existence and his goodness can't really be done, just like disproving it can't be done.

This is only a true statement if God does not actually exist.

 

[warpus]

I just wanted to say that I don't agree that you couldn't prove that God exists. It could be done, just not if he doesn't exist.. obviously

edit: XXXPOST

 

[classical_hero]

Try Revelation! It's zany!

Revelation is nasty stuff, since it is God pouring down his wrath on mankind. It is scary to ready what goes on, but thankfully I won't be part of it.

 

[JollyRoger]

Hopefully I won't be a part of God committing one of the seven deadly sins either.

 

[_random_]

Revelation is about how, after all the crazy spit that's gone down and will continue to go down, the good guys win. "Zany" might be an apt descriptor given the colorful imagery employed, but I don't see it as nasty.

 

[JollyRoger]

Whoever wrote Revelation was surely following Genesis in taking dominion over certain plants.

 

[El_Machinae]

I think 'zany' is apt, imo, because I think it's clearly written to have metaphorical imagery. I mean, the intent is clear to be metaphorical, not that the metaphors are clear.

 

[JollyRoger]

What's a metaphor?

A cow herd.

A cow heard? Hope she doesn't tell.

That depends on her moo'ed.

 

[classical_hero]

I think 'zany' is apt, imo, because I think it's clearly written to have metaphorical imagery. I mean, the intent is clear to be metaphorical, not that the metaphors are clear.

Just like Jesus' parables. Those who want to understand them will be able to find out what they mean and those who don't will be left in the dark about their meaning.

 

[Rashiminos]

This was in reply to me saying that if God was evil he might just make up a bunch of random rules in order for us to get into heaven (or something like that). I assume you think this is intersting because that's what you think Christianity is?

Nah. I was thinking of Leviticus at the time. Oh, and "God," please.

I'll grant you that Christianity has lots of laws in it.

That's debatable. Even JC seemed to narrow the list.

But the point of the Law is not to set up guidelines that, if you follow them, you can make it to heaven. The point of the Law is to prove to everyone that they can't follow the Law and that they need a Savior.

To convince them to believe they are "sinners" and that they need "God?" (more specifically the one from without)

The fact that Christians try to implement the commands of the Bible in their life is not an evidence that they are trying to work their way into heaven. It's an evidence that they love Jesus who said, "if you love me, keep my commandments."

Okay, but I can tell many of them are failing in that task.

I guess that makes sense from the perspective of someone who believes... well, I won't presume to know what you might believe. But I think it's probably safe to assume that you don't believe what I do - that I am a sinner who can't do anything to help himself because of it, and that God provided a way for me to be forgiven of my sins.

So provided you do what "God" wants(/bids) you to do, you might feel better about yourself.

There is a lot of death, yes. I supoose this is to demonstrate to us the serious predicament in which we find ourselves. Death is a punishment for sin. If you don't want that, but would rather have life (not immortality, of course), then you must accept the gift that Christ offers through his death on the cross (Romans 6:23).

Clearly there are consequences for not doing as "God" wants(/bids).

This is only a true statement if God does not actually exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_incompleteness_theorems

 

[El_Machinae]

Just like Jesus' parables. Those who want to understand them will be able to find out what they mean and those who don't will be left in the dark about their meaning.

Fair enough, though on the perfectly objective "elmac zany scale", Revelations is 9.8x more zany than Jesus's parables

 

[Borachio]

I just wanted to say that I don't agree that you couldn't prove that God exists. It could be done, just not if he doesn't exist.. obviously

edit: XXXPOST

I don't agree.

I agree you could prove the existence of some entity or other (though even this might be harder to do than a, let's say, "on the balance of probabilities there exists said entity" - in a similar way way you could "prove" that on the balance of probabilities there exists an entity called Borachio, for a totally random example).

I don't agree that you could prove that said entity is God. Or, at the very least, it would be a totally non-trivial thing to do.

 

[El_Machinae]

Yeah, maybe not logically 'prove'. 'Convince someone'? Sure.
The Bible itself presents multiple stories of God 'providing evidence' of His existence; it presents these stories as if the existence of God there is evidence for.

 

[Arakhor]

It makes me wonder what happened to all those people who lived in the Land of Nod, who weren't descended from Adam and Eve and thus weren't cursed with death (allegedly).

 

[Borachio]

They're still sound asleep, I'd say.

 

[RobAnybody]

I would like to take a moment to acknowledge all those who said Revelation instead of "Revelations". I am mildly surprised. That doesn't usually happen.

 

[timtofly]

It makes me wonder what happened to all those people who lived in the Land of Nod, who weren't descended from Adam and Eve and thus weren't cursed with death (allegedly).

They were destroyed in the Flood. Genesis 6:6