Let's Read the Bible Once

Are there any quotes in the Bible that explain why God values belief in something lacking evidence so much?
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Just curious if there are any quotes in the Bible that quote God saying something like: "Belief in me is important because ________"

I don't know that you'll find anything that says it specifically in that way, but there are quite a few places that talk about our reliance needing to be on God not on men. As you said, if it could be proven, why would we need faith? But without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6). But again, that's just a statement of fact, not really an answer to "why."

An answer to consider would be the fact that if God proved himself to you, would you not, essentially, be required to believe him? But God wants us to love him, and a forced love is not really love at all. You won't necessarily find that in a verse of scripture, but the message of God loving us and him wanting us to reciprocate is written all throughout.

As to your statement of "lacking evidence so much," I would offer Romans 5:8 - "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." If the Bible is the story of how we failed God, and how he loved us so much that the offered a way for us to be forgiven of our failures, how much more evidence do you need? You seek signs and wisdom, and in doing so, you prove what's written in I Corinthians 1.

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

It's kind of an ugly picture of those who do believe - we are not wise according to the flesh, not noble, not mighty, despised even. But God has chosen us for that express purpose, so that we cannot have any reason to glory in his presence, because we are wholly unworthy. If I could prove God, could I not have a reason to boast of it? But all of my boasting must be in the Lord, not in myself.
 
I'm saying that unless Moses was prescient or had access to time travel, he couldn't have known what was going to happen after his death. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to say that every single chapter and verse of the first 5 books were given to him before he died, since there were 7 verses that took place after he died.

There's a couple of theories about the authorship of Deuteronomy. One is that God gave Moses insight into events surrounding the time of his death and so he was able to write about them (Moses was a prophet after all). Another is that Moses wrote most of the book, and the Joshua later supplemented it to fill in the gaps.

Either way it's not aproblem for most of Christendom since the ultimate author of all of the Bible is God, and he merely used different people to write down his words.
 
An answer to consider would be the fact that if God proved himself to you, would you not, essentially, be required to believe him? But God wants us to love him, and a forced love is not really love at all. You won't necessarily find that in a verse of scripture, but the message of God loving us and him wanting us to reciprocate is written all throughout.

Why couldn't I love God if I believed 100% that he exists? I believe that my parents exist, yet I love them dearly - and it isn't forced love at all.

Would my love for them have been more potent if I needed faith to believe that they exist because it wasn't possible to prove that they exist for some reason? I don't understand this at all, which is I guess why I asked the initial question.

It's kind of an ugly picture of those who do believe - we are not wise according to the flesh, not noble, not mighty, despised even.

Nah, I don't despise those who believe. I know a lot of people who do, most of them in my family. I just don't get why God would on purpose hide himself and put so much emphasis on believing that he exists - seemingly over all other attributes of man.

What's so important about believing that God exists? Why would the system break if God wasn't so hard to believe in? Why did God set things up the way he did?

The only clue so far is this:

But without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6)

Mind elaborating? I could look up the verse, but I'm no good at analyzing religious texts.
 
Why couldn't I love God if I believed 100% that he exists? I believe that my parents exist, yet I love them dearly - and it isn't forced love at all.

Would my love for them have been more potent if I needed faith to believe that they exist because it wasn't possible to prove that they exist for some reason? I don't understand this at all, which is I guess why I asked the initial question.

You love your parents, I assume, because they reared you, and you have experiences with them that have demonstrated their love toward you. You don't necessarily know that they love you - you trust that they do based on what they have done for you throughout your life. Would you love them as much if they just abandoned you at birth and never gave you any reason to love them? Same with God - he demonstrated that he loves you, and he wants you to love him back.


Nah, I don't despise those who believe. I know a lot of people who do, most of them in my family. I just don't get why God would on purpose hide himself and put so much emphasis on believing that he exists - seemingly over all other attributes of man.

What's so important about believing that God exists? Why would the system break if God wasn't so hard to believe in? Why did God set things up the way he did?

The only clue so far is this:

Mind elaborating? I could look up the verse, but I'm no good at analyzing religious texts.

Hebrews 11 is often called the Hall of Faith - it's a list of many people throughout the Bible who had faith in God. Verse 5 talks about Enoch, who was taken to heaven before he died. His testimony before men was that he pleased God. And then the writer explains that we can't please God without faith, because those that come to God must believe first that he exists, and second that he rewards those who seek him. What's so important about believing he exists? It's the root of faith. And faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the word of God (Rom 10:17)... which is why I said earlier in this thread that even if you don't believe, I'm happy that there are some who are taking up the challenge of reading through the Bible, even if only trying to disprove it.

Still don't feel like that really answers your question, though. You want to know why God did it this way - why God made it hard to prove he exists. I don't know that I can give you a chapter and verse for that. It's more of a philosophical answer, but I don't know if that will suffice for you.

The only thing I can say is that the Bible seems more concerned with faith and the increase thereof (Mark 9:24 - "Lord, I believe; help thou my unbelief") than it is with offering empirical evidence for reasons to believe it. It's hard to accept, especially for well-educated, scientific-minded people like we have here on the board, but that's the way it is, and that's why the road to heaven is narrow, and there are few that find it (Matt. 7:14).
 
Yeah, it doesn't really answer my question, but thanks for trying :)

For example, I don't see what would be so bad if God appeared on CNN every morning and gave us a sermon and told us what he thought of the state of the world and gave his advice to his children. We'd sit in front of our TVs and listen to his wise words. Then we'd all go to church and worship him and sign hymns.

We'd still need faith that he's actually a good guy and is there to do good for us - because hey, he could be lying. You'd need faith to believe in him and his goodness, even though you're already convinced 100% that he exists - cause hey, he's on CNN every morning.

Isn't there a quote in the Bible that says something like: "K so you guys will not see me again. I am going into hiding, because ________. Worship me and seek me out. Peace". I mean, probably not, but I haven't read the Bible in a long time.
 
Yeah, it doesn't really answer my question, but thanks for trying :).

You're welcome? :)

For example, I don't see what would be so bad if God appeared on CNN every morning and gave us a sermon and told us what he thought of the state of the world and gave his advice to his children. We'd sit in front of our TVs and listen to his wise words. Then we'd all go to church and worship him and sign hymns.

We'd still need faith that he's actually a good guy and is there to do good for us - because hey, he could be lying. You'd need faith to believe in him and his goodness, even though you're already convinced 100% that he exists - cause hey, he's on CNN every morning.

CNN? Seriously? C'mon, dude... you know he'd be on Fox News. Which, of course, would be all the more reason for non-Christians not to believe him. ;)

Isn't there a quote in the Bible that says something like: "K so you guys will not see me again. I am going into hiding, because ________. Worship me and seek me out. Peace". I mean, probably not, but I haven't read the Bible in a long time.

Actually, there sort of is, now that you mention it. it's in John 14. Of course it requires you believing that Jesus is God.

1 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Jesus is saying, "Hey, I'm outta here, but believe in me and if you believe in me, then you can believe in the Father, because if you've seen me, you've seen him." In other passages he says, "I and my Father are one." So if you believe in Jesus and who he says he is, then you shouldn't have any trouble believing in God.
 
Jesus is saying, "Hey, I'm outta here, but believe in me and if you believe in me, then you can believe in the Father, because if you've seen me, you've seen him." In other passages he says, "I and my Father are one." So if you believe in Jesus and who he says he is, then you shouldn't have any trouble believing in God.

The problem with Jesus' logic here is that he never bothered to leave any evidence that he existed at all, much less evidence that he was divine. So there was no good reason for people to believe in him. Unless he was just talking to his buddies.
 
The problem with Jesus' logic here is that he never bothered to leave any evidence that he existed at all, much less evidence that he was divine. So there was no good reason for people to believe in him. Unless he was just talking to his buddies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

I know it's wikipedia, but still... beginning of the 3rd paragraph reads, "Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed,[1][2][3][4]... Biblical scholars and classical historians regard theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[6][7][8]"

How accurately the Bible portrays him is another debate, but whether or not he existed is not really debated.
 
Yeah, I've no doubt that there was an actual Jesus that catalyzed Christianity. His supernatural qualities are clearly much more debatable.
 
Christianity is a religion that should have been dead in it's track even before it started according to the conditions of they, yet somehow it managed to survive. This is a massive contradiction, since it is a religion based on facts and what people saw at the time. If you can't trust eyewitness accounts then you can't trust any thing. If you want to get to the last paragraph for a summary of why we can believe Jesus' claim to be divine.

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.html There are several factor shown that Christianity should have been dead and buried even before it tried to get of the ground.
Factor #1 -- Who Would Buy One Crucified? - In other religions the messiah like figures is a person of great strength and would never allow himself to be humiliated by the hands of man like being crucified. Also since people of "the way" claim he was god, this is even more nonsense, since for one God can never become man and also God will never allow himself to be treated in such a manner, and yet this is the primary claim of Christian, that we believe in a crucified saviour. That is an extraordinary claim and most people see it as foolishness
Factor #2 -- Neither Here Nor There: Or, A Man from Galilee?? - The stigma of where you were born was still around then. Galilee was a backwater of a backwater. Jews weren't highly regarded and even among Jews, Galilee was some sort of redneck place.
Factor #3 -- Getting Physical! The Wrong "Resurrection" - Quite simply dead people stay dead. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust. Also the prevailing believe at the time that was that physical was evil and thus having it destroyed and living in a spiritual plane is the ultimate goal of humanity.
Factor #4 -- What's New? What's Not Good - It's all about the ancients. Christianity was a new religion and that meant it couldn't be trusted. The Jews also had problems with it since they were stooped in their genealogies that trace their root back to their forefathers and thus they always compared Jesus with Abraham.
Factor #5 -- Don't Demand Behaviour - How dare you tell me what to do with my life. Christianity tells us to live a pure life, but most lives then as now are based on living life to the fullest.
Factor #6 -- Tolerance is a Virtue - Christianity was upsetting the usual order of the time about spirituality. (The title of this one is a bit confusing to try and explain.)
Factor #7 -- Stepping Into History - This is about reports of things that happened back then that could be verifiable and thus if anyone of these reports found in the Bible, like things recorded in Acts, then you could point to the falsehood and then be suspicious of the rest of what is being written. There are so many things that happen in Acts that if they didn't happen, distractors could point to them, but we don't see that happening. Man even described are seen by countless people. Th Passover was often attended by millions of people and thus if you get anything wrong, it is easy to pick and discredit the rest of your story.
Factor #8 -- Do Martyrs Matter, and More? - You fight for your religion, you don't simply allow yourself to be killed for your cause. Persecution was the primary method on how Christianity spread. And rather than fight the persecution, you just simply submitted to it.
Factor #9 -- Human vs. Divine: Never the Twain Shall Meet! - God becoming man is simply madness.
Factor #10 -- No Class! - Everyone is equal in this religion. Utter nonsense since they knew that some people superior to others. Even now we try our best to separate people into little boxes.
Factor #11 -- Don't Rely on Women! - Women were considered to be reliable witness, and yet in the Bible women are some of the most important witnesses to some of the most important events in the Bible. These Christians are simply mad.
Factor #12 -- Don't Rely on Bumpkins, Either! - Fishermen and shepherds are low lives. Yet we see many important things as result of people who were considered to be unimportant in the scheme of things. The primary preachers of the gospel were ignorant fishermen. :crazeyes:
Factor #13 -- You Can't Keep a Secret! - Society back then was group orientated, which is still the case in some parts of the world today. Thus it would be impossible to keep anything secret, unlike the way we value our privacy here in the West. So any claims would have been check up by those who are keeping an eye on making sure society ran smoothly.
Factor #14 -- An Ignorant Deity?? - If you want a decent deity, at least make him respectable.
Factor #15 -- A Prophet Without Honour - At least make him honourable, not make him die like some common thief. Everything about his death and burial showed he died dishonourably. Not fitting for a messiah.
Factor #16 -- Miscellaneous Contrarium - There are various other things that are talked about that are contrary to normal life of a 1st century person. Just look at the article for them. Christianity was simply contrary to the lives lived back then and those are the demands it placed.
Acts 17:6,7 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also; 7 Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus.
Factor #17 -- Encouraging People to Check the Facts for Themselves - There are just so many things that happened in the NT that could simply be debunked at the time because so many could check up on the facts of the story. Everywhere Jesus went he was amongst a crowd. SO things like healing people would have been se b thousands. There are even stories of Romans who had things done to the people around them, like the healing of his servant. A centurion is a highly respectable position and relying on his word when it didn't happen, that is a big problem. The fact is that the Bible makes many claims that could be verifiable by the people of the time. All it took was for one of the to be false and the people could refute the claims easily, but in many cases the people had to resort to outright lies to try and discredit the claims the early Christians made. The claims of Jesus' divinity could easily be shown false since he did many things to show he was Messiah. These were witnessed thousands and we never see any one event of Jesus being discredited by those who were there.

The whole point is this: Christianity makes extraordinary claims that could easily been stopped at the time if any one of them was proven to be false. Yet Christianity flourished under the conditions it was placed in. If the things recorded in the Gospel and Acts didn't happen, then there was ample opportunity to show them to be false by the people around them, since they were in plain view of crowds. Christianity is a life changer and without any facts to back it up, it would have dead in the water, and yet we are here now. Something extraordinary had to have happened for it to be still around now.
 
Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism seem to be doing OK. Despite not having a founding figure crucified, or resurrected, apparently.

How many denominations of Christianity are there again? ~40,000?

Is it still meaningful to talk about "Christianity" at all?
 
Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism seem to be doing OK.

That's because they offer people something they want to here, namely that there's something you can do, some way to live your life in such a way that will either earn you God's approval or will allow you to advance on to the next stage of enlightenment or divinity.

Christianity is unique in that it says you can't do anything for yourself, but that you have to rely on whay God did for you. It's not a popular message.


How many denominations of Christianity are there again? ~40,000?

Is it still meaningful to talk about "Christianity" at all?

Sure it is. Just like it's still meaningful to talk about Heinz, despite the fact that they have 57 different varieties. You just need to make sure you know which variety you're talking about because they might not all taste good on a steak.
 
Christianity is unique in that it says you can't do anything for yourself, but that you have to rely on whay God did for you. It's not a popular message.
It's utter nonsense to say this is unique to Christianity. And just shows a complete ignorance of the other mainstream religions.

(I'm sorry to be so abrupt about it, but I've heard this spouted far too often to tolerate it any longer.)
 
It's utter nonsense to say this is unique to Christianity. And just shows a complete ignorance of the other mainstream religions.

(I'm sorry to be so abrupt about it, but I've heard this spouted far too often to tolerate it any longer.)

By all means, then, please educate me. I mean, it's not like I'm completely oblivious to other religion's teachings, but if you've got some kind of insight that can show me where another religion teaches that God sacrificed himself for his followers because they could not save themselves, I'd be interested to hear it.
 
Well, there's not much to tell. A cursory examination of Taoism will bring you right up against it.

Pretty much the same with Buddhism, at least in it's more philosophical and less culture-centric versions.

And again with Hinduism.

They all seem to concur that there's very little an individual can do to, you know, achieve enlightenment.

On the other hand, when Christians say there's nothing you can do, except put your trust in God (or however they phrase it), they seem to be ironically ignoring the fact that "putting your trust in God" is an act in itself.

Curious? No?
 
By all means, then, please educate me. I mean, it's not like I'm completely oblivious to other religion's teachings, but if you've got some kind of insight that can show me where another religion teaches that God sacrificed himself for his followers because they could not save themselves, I'd be interested to hear it.

What is the sacrifice? Jesus died, just like all men. Then his daddy apparantly gave him a reroll, thus taking back even the faux sacrifice. It's not so much that it is an unpopular message as one that doesn't really add up once you actually think about it.
 
By all means, then, please educate me. I mean, it's not like I'm completely oblivious to other religion's teachings, but if you've got some kind of insight that can show me where another religion teaches that God sacrificed himself for his followers because they could not save themselves, I'd be interested to hear it.
Ah well, I misread this at first.

The idea of the God king sacrificing himself for his people is an ancient meme, I suggest.

It features heavily in Frazer's Golden Bough. Also in Campbell's Masks of God.

More prosaically, you see the same psychological reality when people self-harm. But this digresses somewhat.
 
Well, there's not much to tell. A cursory examination of Taoism will bring you right up against it.

Pretty much the same with Buddhism, at least in it's more philosophical and less culture-centric versions.

And again with Hinduism.

They all seem to concur that there's very little an individual can do to, you know, achieve enlightenment.

Well, I suppose I need to do some more homework, then.

On the other hand, when Christians say there's nothing you can do, except put your trust in God (or however they phrase it), they seem to be ironically ignoring the fact that "putting your trust in God" is an act in itself.

Curious? No?

The Bible doesn't teach that you need to "put your trust in Christ" to be saved. If anything it teaches that the trust that you put in Christ is a result of the faith that is given to you by God (Ephesians 2:8-10). Before we're saved, we are dead in sins - we cannot choose Christ. He initiates the transaction by giving us faith. Everything else is a result of that. But the transaction that saves us is not an act that we take.
 
This last paragraph is like something straight out Confessions of a Justified Sinner. Those who are saved can do just exactly as they please. How could they not? While the damned are damned whatever they think or do.

What is it? Calvinism?
 
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