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Leugi's Israel for VP

Discussion in 'Mods Repository' started by pineappledan, Apr 5, 2018.

  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Leader: King David

    UA: Chosen of YHWH: +25% :c5strength: Combat bonus vs. Barbarians and 50 :c5faith: Faith on clearing Barbarian Camps. +2:c5faith: Faith and :c5culture: Culture for all GP improvements and Great Works. Cannot Construct Temples.

    Note: Free temples from Oracle are added normally


    UU: Maccabee
    (Swordsman)
    unlocked at Iron working
    100:c5production:
    Requires 1 iron

    2 Moves
    15:c5strength:CS
    Shock I Promotion
    Hasmonean Guerilla Promotion (+25% Flank attack and Wounded Unit attack bonuses. Ignores terrain penalties, and +5 HP when healing in friendly territory)

    UB: Solomon's Temple (Great Temple)
    Unlocked at Construction (3 techs earlier)
    Must be constructed in Capital
    Does not require Temple
    7 :c5faith:Faith, 3 :c5culture:Culture, 3 :c5gold:Gold
    Instant boost of 100:c5faith:Faith on completion
    +1:c5faith: for every 4 :c5citizen: citizens on Empire
    +1:c5gold: /+1:c5culture: to Wine, Incense and Amber on Empire
    +100% religious pressure in city
    +20% Conversion Resistance on Empire
    Slightly reduces :c5unhappy: Religious needs on empire.
    3 Great works of Music Slots
    (+5:c5culture:, +5:c5gold:Gold if themed. All Great Works must be your own.)
    building cost increases with number of buildings in empire
    No bonus to temples

    3rd and 4th components:
    Spoiler :

    UI: Kibbutz
    Unlocked at Fertilizer
    May only be built on Farms and not adjacent to another Kibbutz
    +5:c5food:, +3:c5culture:, +3:c5science:, +1:c5production:
    +1:c5food: to adjacent farms
    +2:c5production: to adjacent GP tile improvements
    +1:c5production: at Industrialization
    +1:c5production: at Military Science
    +1:c5science:, +1:c5culture:at Ballistics
    +1:c5science:, +1:c5culture: at Mobile Tactics

    UGP: Shophet (Great General)
    2 Moves
    Leadership - (15%:c5strength: Combat for owned units within 2 tiles)
    Can be expended to boost :c5war:supply cap by 2 and build Citadels
    Judge of Israel - Generates +2:c5culture: and :c5faith: Faith
    Milhemet - provides bonus based on whether in friendly territory, or in neutral/enemy territory
    • Milhemet Mitzvah (friendly territory) - additional +10% CS to units within 2 tiles
    • Milhemet Reshut (neutral/enemy territory) - Enemy units killed within 2 tiles of Shophet yield random :c5greatperson:GPP in capital, (1.5x unit :c5strength:strength)
    Credits:
    • Ekmek: 3D Leaderscene
    • Janboruta: Map
    • Pineappledan: VP compatibility changes
    • danrell: Shophet model
    • Lastsword: Shophet icon
    • Leugi: All else
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  2. hokath

    hokath Chieftain

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    Nice choice I always liked this mod.
    Not constructing temples is a bit balance concerning from the point of view that if you get one of the resources buffed by the temple you're going to feel shafted. Generally the UA feels a bit weak?
     
  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    See, that's a big oversight, glad you pointed that out. The wonder will have to boost wine and incense on empire then

    The UA is intentionally weak. I wanted most of the power to come from the wonder
     
  4. hokath

    hokath Chieftain

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    Alright cool. What's your worry with the Kibbutz tech?
    Also, tell me about what you think the strategies will be playing Israel, I'd like to hear how you see it fitting in to the `meta'.
     
  5. infidel88

    infidel88 Chieftain

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    So fully upgraded Kibbutz gives you +7:c5food:, +7:c5culture:, +7:c5science:, +8:c5production: and can be spammed everywhere? That's WAY too much. Even for modern era.
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    The first kibbutz was built in 1909, and I currently have the UI unlocking at late renaissance. An industrial tech like Industrialization or fertilizer would be more accurate, but I am worried that players would hate having their UI come that late.
    Isreal is best suited towards a CV or SV. It gets bonuses towards a fast religion, but no help with spreading/enhancing.
    The UW rewards tall cities and high population across empire, but no bonuses to food. Cities cannot build temples (5 faith per turn in medieval), so they require 10:c5citizen: to break even on the Temple of Solomon (1:c5faith: per 2 :c5citizen:).
    The UA and UW both boost GP tiles, so the most obvious beliefs are:
    • "Resilience" (GProphets 25% cheaper, bonus on holy sites)
    • "Knowledge through devotion" (culture on GWs, bonus on holy sites)
    • "to the Glory of God" (buy any GP with faith)
    The strategy is to have a reasonably tall empire focused on faith production for faith purchases. The civ's abilities all emphasize GP tiles and GWs, so no bulbing.
    Get religion established --> hang on till industrial --> buy everything
    This strategy is re-emphasized by the 3UC/4UC components, where the UI unlocks around the same time as GP purchases, making an even bigger worker blitz, since railroads are at the same time. The UI also helps flip towards a Science victory.

    The Unique units both provide some benefits for aggressive play, but are far stronger on defense. This reinforces Israel's focus on a small, focused empire.
    • Corrected to +7:c5production: (1+2+2+2). It was not my intention to make it 8. 7s across the board
    • There has to be some compensation for the fact that Israel gets their UI more than a full era later than any other civ.
    • The UI requires a farm on the tile before it can be improved, so it requires 14+ turns to build, and can only be built on flat land.
    • The Number you quoted is only at information era. The 3:c5culture:/3:c5science: comes, at mobile tactics, so it's rather irrelevant.
    • Consider the Mayan Kuna:
      • 8:c5science:/2:c5faith:/2:c5culture:/1:c5gold:/2:c5production: on forests at flight (latest tech upgrade)
      • unlocked at construction
    How about this instead?
    UI: Kibbutz
    Unlocked at Fertilizer
    May only be built on Farms and not adjacent to another Kibbutz
    +5:c5food:, +4:c5culture:, +4:c5science:, +1:c5production:
    +1:c5food: to adjacent farms
    +2:c5production: to adjacent GP tile improvements
    +2:c5production: at Industrialization
    +2:c5production: at Military Science
    +2:c5production: at Ballistics
    +3:c5science:, +3:c5culture: at Mobile Tactics

    So the UI comes in industrial, and by information has:
    • 7:c5food:/7:c5production:/7:c5science:/7:c5culture: on grassland
    • 6:c5food:/8:c5production:/7:c5science:/7:c5culture: on plains
    • 8:c5food:/7:c5production:/7:c5science:/7:c5culture: on flooplain
    • 6:c5food:/7:c5production:/7:c5science:/7:c5culture: on tundra
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018
  7. Jarula

    Jarula Chieftain

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    Kibbutz is too strong. But I like the civ if anything though they should have more negatives like Venice maybe a can found 4 cities max.
     
  8. hokath

    hokath Chieftain

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    Being built on a farm replaces the farm? I assume so, I've forgotten how it worked?
    A later unlock is fine as a 3/4 UC imo. Maybe pull back on culture and science yields some more.
    I don't see a need to add negatives personally.
     
  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    I will not be adding negatives besides the Temple ban. Without temples, Israel has no way of passively increasing religious pressure other than specific faith buildings. I want the civ to feel like it has a gimmick, not make it unplayable.

    I have updated the proposal for the Kibbutz:
    UI: Kibbutz
    Unlocked at Fertilizer (late industrial)
    May only be built on Farms and not adjacent to another Kibbutz
    +5:c5food:, +3:c5culture:, +3:c5science:, +1:c5production:
    +1:c5food: to adjacent farms
    +2:c5production: to adjacent GP tile improvements
    +1:c5production: at Industrialization
    +1:c5production: at Military Science
    +1:c5science:, +1:c5culture:at Ballistics
    +1:c5science:, +1:c5culture: at Mobile Tactics

    Any UI unlocked in industrial has to be noticeably more impactful in order to catch up to other civs. I will release it at the level described here, and fully expect I will have to raise it to keep Israel competitive. There is too much catch-up to be done at that point.
     
  10. Jarula

    Jarula Chieftain

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    If I was playing a ynaemp game I'd play these guys perhaps... This is like totally my type of civ.
     
  11. hokath

    hokath Chieftain

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    Asterix Rage likes this.
  12. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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  13. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    I was the one that recommended Solomon's temple as a wonder for that mod. Oops.

    @Infixo hasn't paid much mind to overlaps before. EE adds the Summer Palace as a national wonder, even though it's already a wonder in the base VP, for example. If he doesn't like the overlap then he could either drop the wonder, or replace it with the Dome of the Rock. It's of little concern to me at any rate.
     
  14. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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    The Solomon's temple being at the center of this mod, the Dome of the Rock looks nice IMO
     
  15. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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  16. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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    In Civ, the Eiffel Tower can be in Berlin, Broadway in Mecca, the Statue of Liberty in Beijing, the University of Sankore in Washington. No controversy.
     
  17. Infixo

    Infixo Warlord

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  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    I am aware that it was not your decision to include the Summer Palace as a wonder in EE. It was, however, your decision to keep it in. The fact that you did so suggests you pay more mind to giving proper respect to the people whose mod you adapted than to the dissonance of the same wonder existing twice.

    It's a decision you came to and it's not my business.
    I apologize if you interpreted my comment as being critical of your work. I will say, however, that it is not reasonable to ask that anyone withhold judgement on your work, or the work of anyone else.

    The point I was trying to make is that I consider Solomon's Temple irreplaceable in this mod, and am not likely to change it for something else. I am comfortable with Solomon's Temple being in 2 different modmods if you are. I mentioned you in the comment as a way of begging your opinion; if I was merely speculating on your thoughts then I need not have mentioned you at all.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  19. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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    You both should find a compromise. If not, in less than 1 year, we will have to establish a list of "don't fit together" VP-Modmod to avoid a game with many common units / Improvements / Wonder and so on...

    I'll pick VP-EE then
     
  20. Infixo

    Infixo Warlord

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