Liberals Protesting Democracy

[AppleDumplingHead]

Might I encourage you to familiarise yourself with, you know, the entire history of organised protest?

Sure, when it's a real thing, like people being victimized or otherwise not being represented. These people were represented, they had their vote, they lost. Now they're just being bitter and destructive without valid cause.

 

[Arwon]

Save it for the really bad issues

Oh like actual white supremacists being appointed in the White House, like a president-elect promising the forced population transfer of millions of people, the registration and tracking of millions of people, the rescinding of health access and reproductive rights to millions of people? Like that sort of thing?

Why should people wait til he actually starts to do the things he's promising to do in order to register opposition to them?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Sure, when it's a real thing, like people being victimized or otherwise not being represented. These people were represented, they had their vote, they lost. Now they're just being bitter and destructive without valid cause.

They've been represented at the federal level for four years out of the last forty. I think that's a valid cause, especially since we are talking about the majority.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

Oh like actual white supremacists in the White House, a president promising the forced population transfer of millions of people, the registration and tracking of millions of people, the rescinding of health access and reproductive rights to millions of people? Like that?

If it were a Muslim in the white house, I'd say the same thing. If it were a far-right, NRA supporting gun enthusiast with a freakin bazooka on his back (with legal carry, just hypothesizing), I'd say the same thing. There are not, currently, forced population transfers, there are not, currently, registrations and tracking of millions of people (unless you count PRISM et.al), and you're intentionally convoluting "health access" and "reproductive rights" for effect. In America, if you need medical help, no hospital has the right to turn you away, regardless of who will/will not be paying for it, nor are people losing the right to have sex and get abortions, albeit the processes may become "state mandated" instead of "federally mandated", which I personally believe should be the case anyway, kinda like smoking in restaurants. If that state/business/whatever wants those customers/patrons/supporters, they make policy which is in the opinions of the participants. Maybe you don't believe in states' rights and a lesser controlling fed as I do, maybe that's a big difference between us.

 

[Arwon]

Maybe you don't believe in states' rights and a lesser controlling fed as I do, maybe that's a big difference between us.

Nah mate I don't think that's the big one.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

Nah mate I don't think that's the big one.

Well, you don't know me from Adam, except for a couple of my expressed moderate-right/religion and video game interests, so I think whatever issue you have is hallucinatory.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

They've been represented at the federal level for four years out of the last forty. I think that's a valid cause, especially since we are talking about the majority.

Wait, what... who? Democrats? I've been alive over 40 years and there have been 20 years of democratic presidencies, Carter for 4, Clinton for 8, Obama for 8. Who are you trying to fool?

Oh, and this "majority" thing needs to lose some momentum. A president is elected via states having appropriate say as per population. Believe me when I say I'm truly sorry that not enough Democrats showed up to vote in many states. I live in a blue state, there are very few people here to convince. Dems failed, though, badly, in Florida and NC especially, places like Michigan (what happened Michigan?!?). Your real argument is that people in those states didn't get out to vote.

It does. not. matter if 5 million people showed up in California and voted blue, that is just California, that is just 55 of the greater 540 total. This is how it's been for 200 years. It's inconvenient, but these are the rules going in. If you care to seem educated on the matter, you must relent to this. If you care for order, you point to the rules governing the situation.

 

[Lord of Elves]

What a sad world we live in where the ones defending the legitimate results of a fair election are painted as the bad guys. The people protesting this election are not noble crusaders fighting for justice. They are petulant, immature children who are throwing a nationwide tantrum because they didn't get their way. These protestors remind me of my five year old daughter when she pouts and cries because I didn't buy her that toy she wanted.

Christ, man, "I know you are but what am I," like I genuinely have no idea how to respond to this. Because people refuse to quietly go along with your white supremacy they're "petulant, immature children." I guess you'll just have to smack the crap out of them or whatever, like people keep saying. The whole lot of you have an attitude of entitlement to the actions and even straight opinions of other adults that is kind of just disturbing. I have to assume there's people like you everywhere around me in public but it lends an entirely new tone to hate crimes and random acts of violence when people get on this parental abuse bender talking about people who are protesting.

Fascists are creepy

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

Fascists are creepy

I agree. After there has been a legal vote, when people try to adversely affect the decision in the aftermath, violently protesting that the decision wasn't in the best interest of society, those fascists ( go read about what a fascist does, it's not just someone prejudiced, with whom you don't agree, because you like throwing around epithets you don't entirely understand ) ARE creepy. They need to settle down.

 

[Lord of Elves]

I agree. After there has been a legal vote, when people try to adversely affect the decision in the aftermath, violently protesting that the decision wasn't in the best interest of society, those fascists ( go read about what a fascist does, it's not just someone prejudiced, with whom you don't agree, because you like throwing around epithets you don't entirely understand ) ARE creepy. They need to settle down.

"I have a right to dictate what other people do and how they behave in public entirely beyond my own personal safety, and if you disagree with me, you're the one who's unreasonable."

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

Apparently these demonstrating people don't believe Trump has a right to freedoms of speech and expression. They're so angry with the prospect someone very different from they might have some influence, they violently reject a legal vote. Welcome to the real world, I think the age of innocence and insulation is ending. Hallelujah, the millennials might be good for something yet.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Apparently these demonstrating people don't believe Trump has a right to freedoms of speech and expression. They're so angry with the prospect someone very different from they might have some influence, they violently reject a legal vote. Welcome to the real world, I think the age of innocence and insulation is ending. Hallelujah, the millennials might be good for something yet.

You can keep ascribing motives to the protesters that don't exist until the end of time, but the truth is, you people talk like you want a genocide. Good luck with your constant screeds on the inhumanity of the poor, the inferior races, the sexual deviants and the freaks. We all know what you are about and the veil has been pulled off the ruling class in this country. No better than a gang of Nazis.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

You can keep ascribing motives to the protesters that don't exist until the end of time, but the truth is, you people talk like you want a genocide. Good luck with your constant screeds on the inhumanity of the poor, the inferior races, the sexual deviants and the freaks. We all know what you are about and the veil has been pulled off the ruling class in this country. No better than a gang of Nazis.

Thanks, Mike Godwin. ( no, not you, the real Mike Godwin )

You're being silly. You have no idea how very terrible nazism is. It's routine language to use, though, so for now you're just unoriginal.

The moderate right doesn't want genocide. We want people to use their heads and stop acting like entitled prats.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Thanks, Mike Godwin. ( no, not you, the real Mike Godwin )

You're being silly. You have no idea how very terrible nazism is. It's routine language to use, though, so for now you're just unoriginal.

The moderate right doesn't want genocide. We want people to use their heads and stop acting like entitled prats.

You have to understand that as much as you talk about the "moderate right," Donald Trump, his administration and the forces behind it do not represent the "moderate right" and presenting yourself as anything other than the un-trendy, managerial henchman of fascists is goofy and a lie. So long as you attack other people's right to protest actual white supremacists using the offices of the state to promote a totalitarian agenda, the seizure of property by special interests, the repression of civil liberties, all the good stuff that you guys claim to be so upset about when arguing for the 2nd Amendment, you will be helping fascists.

"Man up and take responsibility for your actions."

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

You've missed the posts where I have expressed sadness with Trump's election. Maybe you think there are only two sides to this, the little, victimized people by an unfair decision and the big mean scarey boogieman who is going to put everyone in hell. I'm more well than this. I don't "attack" anyone's right to anything, everyone has a right to be wrong and act like a complete idiot. I "do" think protests should be reserved for real issues, not "wah, we lost, we don't agree, make it my way or else" after a legal election. This makes it more difficult to establish a legitimate point later, (oh, they're protesting again, turn off the tv).

So, I can see why you and I won't be seeing eye to eye. I still don't understand Arwon.

 

[Lord of Elves]

You've missed the posts where I have expressed sadness with Trump's election. Maybe you think there are only two sides to this, the little, victimized people by an unfair decision and the big mean scarey boogieman who is going to put everyone in hell. I'm more well than this. I don't "attack" anyone's right to anything, everyone has a right to be wrong and act like a complete idiot. I "do" think protests should be reserved for real issues, not "wah, we lost, we don't agree, make it my way or else" after a legal election. This makes it more difficult to establish a legitimate point later, (oh, they're protesting again, turn off the tv).

So, I can see why you and I won't be seeing eye to eye. I still don't understand Arwon.

No one's denying that there's nuance to the issue of Donald Trump but this cool new idea that people have no right to protest, that if they disagree with public policy they have some kind of moral obligation to keep it to themselves, gots to get squashed.

Oh, also, no one's protesting Donald Trump's election. They're protesting him.

 

[sophie]

No one's denying that there's nuance to the issue of Donald Trump but this cool new idea that people have no right to protest, that if they disagree with public policy they have some kind of moral obligation to keep it to themselves, gots to get squashed.

Oh, also, no one's protesting Donald Trump's election. They're protesting him.

Well, they're also protesting that the electoral system is what it is; that we live in a nation where a man can fail to capture a plurality of the electorate's support and yet still be chosen to be the leader of that nation. But nobody is disputing that, per the rules of the election, he won. Nobody is saying his victory is fraudulent or illegitimate.

 

[AppleDumplingHead]

Oh, also, no one's protesting Donald Trump's election. They're protesting him.

That is called civil rights intimidation. It is, by definition, fascist.

 

[Arwon]

Er, no.

 

[Camikaze]

Not to mention, I'm really getting fed up with the hypocrisy from Hillary supporters. They are seriously now doing the exact same thing they criticized Trump supporters for threatening to do if he had been the one to lose. They are refusing to accept the results of a fair and democratic election and trying every last trick in the book to change the result to the one they wanted instead of accepting the results like a mature adult human would. To any Hillary supporter engaging in this behavior I say this: grow the hell up. Say what you want about Republicans and their supporters, but they didn't pull crap like this when both McCain and Romney lost.

There's a whole lot of false equivalence here. You're not really distinguishing between those who are protesting because they disapprove of the election result (which protest cannot be reasonably assailed according to democratic principles), and those who are saying that the results of the election are invalid. There are certainly some people who are wanting the electoral college to act out and declare Clinton the winner regardless of the way their state voted, but that's not what the protests are about, and pretending that it is does your argument no favours.

So you're addressing a very small segment of protestors, with whom no Democratic leaders agree. Now, these protestors might rightly be criticised, if they are calling the legitimacy of the election into question, just as Trump supporters who would have done the same would have been rightly criticised in a similar situation. But that's not what the uproar prior to the election was about! The big deal was that Trump himself was encouraging this - he was peddling the idea that the election would be illegitimate, that it would be 'rigged', that the results should essentially not be accepted as legal or effective. Whilst it's accepted that there will always be some fringe supporters wanting to change the rules of the game when the game is already over, and that it's not really worth worrying too much about an irreducible number of such fringe supporters, it is not seen as acceptable for the candidate to embrace and encourage that fringe, in the hope that it grows. Trump was the fringe.

The broad issue I have with your attitude is that you're seeing hypocrisy where it doesn't exist, by pretending that before the election people had a problem with the prospect of peaceful protest at the outcome of the election. This gels well with your attitude that people shouldn't be so upset about the election results, and is redolent of an attitude of, "why should anyone dare protest if I don't think there's anything wrong?" But it remains an unconvincing argument that the presidential election really didn't matter, and that we should just pretend everything is absolutely normal, with nothing out of the ordinary occurring.