LK154 - CCM - Bablyon

[Northern Pike]

I've always assumed not, but Civinator would be the authority.

 

[Northern Pike]

BTW, we should try not to use our last monk in the Scandinavian campaign unless we've generated a second. The most useful employment of a culture bomb, by far, is on the first city we take in a new war.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Greebley, if you are close to finishing the Vikings off, feel free to do so. I would not mind building infrastructure and getting us ready for the next war against ????

 

[Northern Pike]

Another note: as soon as we have a source of saltpetre we should immediately build the Great Guild in Babylon. (Later: or in Assur, which would be at least as good.) In addition to autoproducing bombardes the GG gives a 25% production boost, so it should go in our strongest city,

We could even pre-build the GG with a great mosque.

 

[Greebley]

I have got it and will continue the Viking campaign.

I am thinking of going light on new deals and unit production so we can make the Monarchy switch. Sounds like renaissance is the one tech we do want before the switch.

 

[Northern Pike]

That sounds good. Our strike force is somewhat depleted--more by units that have dropped out to heal than by actual losses--but OTOH the Vikings don't have much left.

 

[Greebley]

Preturn: Go with prebuild of the great guild. Allow Babylon to continue to grow
I think I switched two cities to Windmill rather than more units.

IBT: Canada would give us less for the Iron.
Landing next to Stockholm of Spear and Archer.

1380 AD: Our Elite sword almost loses to the Spear. The Mullah generates a Monk killing the Archer. Going to try healing on Pike on a Hill, but it could be bombarded. The workers in captured city start a fort to help as it is coastal and I don't see a pressing use close by.
Some healthy units start for next city.

IBT: Lose a Knight to a Knight.

1390 AD:Kill off 3 Knights.

IBT: Larger landing next to Stockholm (6 units) but only one Spear to defend.

1400 AD: Kill off units in Linkoping losing a Knight. The city is ours.
Landing is profitable gaining 2 more Monks. We now have 4 heading back to our lands

IBT: Vikings do not attack this turn. We got kicked out of China but I was not aware we had units there. Did we lose a Colony? Answer: Yes we lost the Iron near Samarra to a new Chinese city.

1410 AD: Don't want to try to defend Linkoping We kill one Knight that can reach it but lost an Enslaver (that knight put units in danger: when enslaver lost the Mullah killed but no monk). Risking limited Enslaver may not have been right though.

IBT: Minor Viking Movement. Only slow units so we keep Linkoping.

1420 AD: Our one tech lead on Indo-China didn't lead to anything. We are one tech over Mongols and Aztecs (different techs so they may just trade). Decide to trade Fur (we have 3 extra) and Horses to Isreal for 20 gpt. Horses are getting pretty safe and if lost would just stop switching to Knights until taken back. Met India (equal in tech)
Advance on NW Viking city. Still cannot see it.

IBT: Knight spotted.

1430 AD: Kill Knight trying with two attack stacks now. Moved next to NW Viking city (Malmo)

IBT: Pikes defend against attacking swords

1440 AD:
Malmo captured losing a knight
Secondary Knight stack loses two units vs Karlskrona (one Elite Knight vs Berserk), and city is captured.
3 Viking cities remain.
Did a trade for Dyes for Furs and some gpt for straight per turn deal.

IBT: Berserker moves.

1450 AD: Karlskrona isn't fully roaded so waiting for bigger force before trying the Capitol. There are workers at Zyr which might help build roads to the Capitol.
Move on only hidden city. Should be next to it next turn.
Will stop here as it is an even year number (turns and year are not both even at same time).

Notes:
Our main attack force should be able to take out the two Northern cities.
There are scattered units near Viking Capitol that can probably launch an attack soon.
I think the Vikings have at most 5 more turns assuming both attack forces can win ( I think they can).
We have 3 Arquebusier that are near our capitol. They might as well stay north.
I have been building only defense units, a few Pike and the Arque.
I have reduced the city sizes of Vikings so they won't flip. It is close to the end so we should be able to stop soon (biggest cities are set to taxmen).
We have a scandanavian supply shipment.
We could not afford next techs even with elephants, saltpeter and fur thrown in. I would not worry about trades and just go for Monarchy. We need to get bigger cities faster.

 

[Northern Pike]

Landing is profitable gaining 2 more Monks. We now have 4 heading back to our lands.

Nice work.

Edit: Why did we give up on founding some incense colonies with our large roading group in the southern desert, when we were only two turns away? Now we'll have to pay for incense again in two turns.

In case we have to leave the Vikings one city due to the settler bug, Visby would be the least troublesome, so we should take that one last.

Regarding the settler bug, it's clear that the Vikings never founded a city with the settler they received on turn 160. There's a good chance that we destroyed it when we took Stockholm for the first time in 1320 AD (turn 161), but if not, it'll activate the bug.

Greebley, I see that you've made town centre our default build in conquered cities (after National Symbol, of course). I haven't done a formal analysis, but my intuition is that building TC's before granaries is wrong. Fast city growth is vital in CCM, whereas a centre in a small town isn't worth much--it may only add one or two shields, and its effect on happiness isn't needed.

We should keep a careful eye on the Aztecs, who might discover Renaissance or another second-tier tech while we can trade them Gunpowder for it. We could also just sell them Gunpowder for 163 gold and 33 gpt, but I'd rather hold out for a tech, even if the odds are low. A lot of our outgoing gpt will come back soon and we don't need the 33 gpt that much.

 

[Northern Pike]

Assuming we take the remaining three Viking cities without any net gain of units, then revolt to monarchy, we'll be at -105 gpt in unit costs. That's quite tolerable given that 140 gpt will come back to us from Canada next turn.

 

[LKendter]

ROSTER:

LKendter
Greebley
Jersey Joe (up)
Elephantium (on deck)
Northern Pike

 

[Jersey Joe]

Got it.

Nice work.

I second that.

In case we have to leave the Vikings one city due to the settler bug, Visby would be the least troublesome, so we should take that one last.

Okay.

Is China going to be our next target? (Indo-china has 19 turns remaining on a trade).

 

[Jersey Joe]

We should keep a careful eye on the Aztecs, who might discover Renaissance or another second-tier tech while we can trade them Gunpowder for it. We could also just sell them Gunpowder for 163 gold and 33 gpt, but I'd rather hold out for a tech, even if the odds are low.

I will watch.

Assuming we take the remaining three Viking cities without any net gain of units, then revolt to monarchy, we'll be at -105 gpt in unit costs. That's quite tolerable given that 140 gpt will come back to us from Canada next turn.

We have a number of trades ending in the next 2 turns, and we can renegotiate our Sending Furs to Greece. The Mongols are sending us 27gpt and that ends in 2 turns. When that ends, I hope to trade Theology to Mongols for at least 27gpt (after checking with other nations to see how much they will give), renew incense deal with Nubia, and revolt into Monarchy.

NP: I hope your estimate is closer than mine. I estimate that if we revolted right now with nothing changing it is going to cost us an extra 184gpt in unit support which we can cover 42gpt (in taxes)+140gpt (Canada deal ends). Capturing the 3 remaining cities reduces unit support by 18gpt.

 

[Northern Pike]

Yes, China looks like our natural next target. I'd really rather attack Israel, because they have so much gold for us to take; but they're so far ahead of us in tech that we'd need an enormous army, and building it would leave us sitting around doing nothing for too long.

We'll need to take Canton first to deprive the Chinese of the Great Wall; fortunately this is what the geography suggests anyway.

 

[Northern Pike]

I'd rather avoid selling the Mongols Theology unless we can get at least 1000 gold for it (cash and gpt together), since we could in principle trade it to them for Naval Guns. Otherwise, great.

My math on our revolting to monarchy after taking three more Viking cities, in a nutshell, is that we'd then have 28 cities supporting three units each, for 84 units, plus the four free units in monarchy, for 88. Our present 123 units minus 88 gives 35 over the limit, and 35 x -3 = -105 gpt.

 

[Northern Pike]

We'll receive our next settler in six turns. I'd suggest that it head for site Five on the screenshot, which has good long-term potential and lets us settle forward in a strategically useful way, but other ideas are welcome.

 

[Northern Pike]

 

[Jersey Joe]

I'd rather avoid selling the Mongols Theology unless we can get at least 1000 gold for it (cash and gpt together), since we could in principle trade it to them for Naval Guns.

I missed that we could get Naval Guns, when I looked. If the Mongols are reasonable, I may trade them for Naval guns, which might open up other trade possibilities.

My math on our revolting to monarchy after taking three more Viking cities, in a nutshell, is that we'd then have 28 cities supporting three units each, for 84 units, plus the four free units in monarchy, for 88. Our present 123 units minus 88 gives 35 over the limit, and 35 x -3 = -105 gpt.

I hope you are correct about each city supporting 3 units. In a couple of test games, to get the correct number of units supported I had to use 2 free units per city not 3. Though in the test games I do get 3 happy faces for 3 MPs.

 

[Northern Pike]

Hmm, interesting. My assumption has been that the Civilopedia entries on governments are wrong about the penalties for units over the limit, because Civinator made a late change there, but correct on other points including unit support per town/city. I guess we'll find out.

If monarchy does work according to your assumptions now, we should seriously consider the challenge of playing the whole game in despotism, which would probably be objectively better.

 

[Greebley]

Sorry totally didn't see the incense and missed any comments on it. So my fault on that.

I think Monarchy would pay for itself due to larger cities as we can get them to grow quickly. Add in science or taxman supported by extra food and I think we would still want to switch - it just would take a bit longer to break even. The difference would be only 28 gold (that is only 9 taxmen in the most corrupt cities) per turn and we can grow fast enough to recover that as well as the 105. I vote for switching. It wins out in the end.

Granaries will become less important with Monarchy as well so I think the town centers or something else would be the winner depending on the shields and happiness.

So I strongly support Monarchy as soon as the war is over.

 

[Civinator]

Here are the settings for the governments in CCM 1.8. I took the description of the civilopedia in CCM 1.8 (so please don´t be irritated by the links that are contained in the civilopedia) and changed them to the real settings in CCM 1.8. Changes are marked in red.

The reason was, that in earlier CCM games the players had big sums of money and I wanted to reduce that. I also wanted to bring the players to change the governments more frequently, so that they not always can conduct wars. For the next version of CCM your thoughts about the settings of governments are highly appreciated. When the prebetatestversion of CCM 2.00 is ready (what I hope will happen in the next two months) you will receive invitations for betatesting and fine-tuning CCM version 2.00.

#GOVT_Anarchy is not so much a system of government as the lack of one. Your civilization can sink into anarchy
if the government falls from prolonged $LINK<civil disorder=GCON_Disorder>, or if you sanction a
$LINK<revolution=GCON_Revolution>. In CCM Anarchy is bloody, as each town in the nation loses 1 population, each city
loses 2 population but it only lasts 2 turns. Additional losses of population can happen, depending on the new choosen government.

During that period corruption and waste are so high that no production occurs and no taxes are collected. Scientific research comes to halt, as well.There is no improvement maintenance when a civilization is in Anarchy.
^
^Worker efficiency 50%
^Hurry Method None
^Corruption / Waste Catastrophic
^War Weariness None
^Draft Rate 0
^Military Police Limit 0
^Units Support:
^ per town 0
^ per city 0
^ per metropolis 0
All units free
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#GOVT_Despotism
^
^Worker efficiency 100%
^Maximum Research 80%
^Hurry Method Forced Labor
^Corruption / Waste Problematic

^War Weariness None
^Assimilation Chance 1%
^Diplomats Regular
^Spies Regular
^Draft Rate 2
^Military Police Limit 2
^Unit Costs 2 (not 1!) edited
^Free Units 10
^Unit Support
^ per town 4
^ per city 4
^
^In addition, any city production square which produces more than two $LINK<food=GCON_Food>, $LINK<shields=GCON_Shields>, or
$LINK<commerce=GCON_Commerce> in a despotic government instead produces one less.
^{To switch to Despotism doesn´t cause additional losses of population.}

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#GOVT_Monarchy

^{- In Monarchy there are no tile penalties.}
^{- To switch to Monarchy doesn´t cause additional losses of population.}
^
^Worker efficiency 100%
^Maximum Research 70%
^Hurry Method Pay citizens
^Corruption / Waste Nuisance
^War Weariness None
^Assimilation Chance 2%
^Diplomats Regular
^Spies Regular
^Draft Rate 2
^Military Police Limit 3
^Unit Costs 3 (not 2!)
^Free Units 4
^Unit Support
^ per town 2 (not 3!)
^ per city 2 (not 3!)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#GOVT_Communism

^{- In Communism there are no tile penalties.}
^{- To switch to Communism causes additional losses of population !}
^{- Additional central productive boost by the $LINK<Five Year Plan=BLDG_Five_Year_Plan>}
^{- Immune to:} Investigate city
^Worker efficiency 100%
^Maximum Research 80%
^Hurry Method Pay citizens
^Corruption / Waste Minimal
^War Weariness None
^Assimilation Chance 4%
^Diplomats Veteran
^Spies Veteran
^Draft Rate 2
^Military Police Limit 4
^Unit Costs 3
^Free Units 4
^Unit Support
^ per town 3 (not 4!)
^ per city 3 (not 5!)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#GOVT_Republic
^{- In Republic there are no tile penalties.}
^{- To switch to Republic causes additional losses of population !}
^{- Trade bonus}: Each tile generates an additional +1 to $LINK<commerce=GCON_Commerce>.
^{- Immune to:} Steal technology
^- Your government is affected by war weariness, which can cause significant
$LINK<civil disorder=GCON_Disorder> problems in times of war, especially if you are the aggressor.
^
^Worker efficiency 100%
^Maximum Research 80%
^Hurry Method Pay citizens
^Corruption / Waste Problematic
^War Weariness Low
^Assimilation Chance 2%
^Diplomats Regular
^Spies Regular
^Draft Rate 1
^Military Police Limit 0
^Unit Costs 4 (not 3!)
^Free Units 4 (not 2!)
^Unit Support
^ per town 3
^ per city 3

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#GOVT_Democracy

^{- In Democracy there are no tile penalties.}
^{- To switch to Democracy causes additional losses of population !}
^{- Trade bonus}: Each tile generates an additional +1 to $LINK<commerce=GCON_Commerce>.
^{- Great for assimilating conquered people}
^{- Immune to:} Initiate propaganda
^However, $LINK<war weariness=GCON_War_Weariness> is a significant problem and war must be entered into only after much consideration.
^
^Worker efficiency 150%
^Maximum Research 100%
^Hurry Method Pay citizens
^Corruption / Waste Minimal
^War Weariness High
^Assimilation Chance 10%
^Diplomats Regular
^Spies Regular
^Draft Rate 1
^Military Police Limit 0
^Unit Costs 4 (not 3!)
^Free Units 4 (not 1!)
^Unit Support
^ per town 3
^ per city 3

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#GOVT_Fascism

^
^{- In Fascism there are no tile penalties.}
^{- To switch to Fascism causes additional losses of population !}
^{- Additional productive boost by $LINK<National Work Service=BLDG_National_Work_Service>}
^{- Immune to:} Investigate city
^Newly conquered cities also lose population, and do not generate culture until a popular majority has been
assimilated => no culture bombing in that phase!
^
^Worker efficiency 150%
^Maximum Research 90%
^Hurry Method Pay citizens
^Corruption / Waste Minimal
^War Weariness None
^Assimilation Chance 2%
^Diplomats Regular
^Spies Regular
^Draft Rate 2
^Military Police Limit 4
^Unit Costs 3
^Free Units 8
^Unit Support
^ per town 4
^ per city 4 (not 5!)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#GOVT_Theocracy

^{a) In Theocracy there is a tile penalty:} Any city production square which produces more than two $LINK<food=GCON_Food>, $LINK<shields=GCON_Shields>, or $LINK<commerce=GCON_Commerce> in that government instead produces one less.
^{b) To switch to Theocracy doesn´t cause additional losses of population.}
^{c) Theocracy is the earliest government to be able to pay to hurry a project.
^{d) Culture is boosted by $LINK<monasteries=BLDG_Monastery>.}
^{- Immune to:} Investigate city
^Worker efficiency 100%
^Maximum Research 80%
^Hurry Method Pay citizens
^Corruption / Waste Minimal
^War Weariness None
^Assimilation Chance 3%
^Diplomats Regular
^Spies Regular
^Draft Rate 2
^Military Police Limit 4
^Unit Costs 2
^Free Units 6 (not 10!)
^Unit Support
^ per town 3 (not 4!)
^ per city 4