LK154 - CCM - Bablyon

[Greebley]

My first thought is that despots are almost too good for the starting govt and should have a unit cost of 2. Unless you want never switching govt to be strong? [Edit: Thinking more deeply; the player could handle that cost but the AI might run into issues as it has many more units. Is that why it is still 1?]

So I understand what you mean now NP. It is another gold per unit. I calculate 201 instead of 26 we have now or -175 gpt

However, we can grow our cities 3x faster (assuming 4 irrigated tiles), rush units with cash, less corruption. Not sure how many extra shields and gold is gained when the tile penalty goes away (but it is big during the golden age as many tiles are 3 shields).

So a big hit in the short term but we can get our newest cities up to size much faster and grow past size 11 for more shields and gold. We can work more hills and get more shields per hill so shields are less in despot.

I think I still want to switch. We likely have enough units for now to take on the French who are backward and near us so we can go with lesser units for a while - until the faster growing cities can cover the cost diff. Our cities can get much bigger in CCM which will cover our costs.

I do think despot only is pretty viable if there is a strong desire to try it - or at least unit we get rails when the tile penalty starts to really hurt.

 

[Greebley]

Another thought is we could disband the regular Enk's if we want more cash in the short term.
Arque's are not hugely expensive like muskets in normal civ so we can replace them

 

[Civinator]

My first thought is that despots are almost too good for the starting govt and should have a unit cost of 2. Unless you want never switching govt to be strong?

Yes, this was the calculation error in the updating of governments. It must be fixed in the next version of CCM and here the mod will have an additional early government: Citystate. Just saw your edit: I agree, that the costs for units in despotism should stay at 1.

 

[Northern Pike]

Some of the above discussion is a bit confusing because the unit cost in despotism is two right now, in the game we're playing. We're thirteen units over the limit and we're paying twenty-six gpt.

Greebley, I agree that we can disband some Enks and go to single coverage of our worker stacks in safe areas, if necessary. We've reached the point where losing one stack would be unpleasant, but not a disaster.

Theocracy might be an option here, although I know it wouldn't address the tile penalty which is your main concern.

Civinator, thanks once again for your full and prompt response to our questions.

 

[Civinator]

Some of the above discussion is a bit confusing because the unit cost in despotism is two right now, in the game we're playing.

That´s true. I corrected the unit costs for Despotism to 2.

Civinator, thanks once again for your full and prompt response to our questions.

Unfortunately here I made a mistake, overlooking the unit costs of 2 for Despotism. Thank you very much for clearing this.

 

[Northern Pike]

In a couple of test games, to get the correct number of units supported I had to use 2 free units per city not 3.

Congratulations on the accuracy of your calculations.

 

[Jersey Joe]

It is 1490 AD: The vikings are dead and we did not get bitten by the "settler bug".

We are a Monarchy.

I can get Clockworks from the Inca for Furs, Elephant, Saltpeter, and 78gpt.
Should I make that trade? (I might be able to trade Clockworks to the Netherlands for Naval Guns, but no guarantee he will want to deal.)

 

[Northern Pike]

Great news.

I guess that would depend on how much more gold we could scrape up to sweeten the deal for Naval Guns from the Dutch. If, for example, we can still sell Gunpowder to the Aztecs for 33 gpt and 160 gold, that would be an argument for making the Clockworks trade. If we'd be flat broke with no further resources* after the first deal, I wouldn't do it.

*Resources in the sense of possibilities, options, not necessarily literal trade items.

This is a close call because we'd be glad to have clocks, but otherwise the top tier of the Age of Discovery tech chart is a waste of time for us.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Preturn – Change viking town centers to granaries.
Renegotiate Trade with Greece Furs for 9gpt +12 gold
Furs to Aztec for 10gpt + 12 gold

The Revolution Begins.

1460AD Troops move to the attack.

Between Turn: Chinese Yoga kills pike by Ellipi (0,1)
By Orebro: Beserker forces knight to retreat.

1470AD The revolution ends. We are a Monarchy.
Renegotiate with Nubia for incense, we give furs + 7gpt + 40 gold.
Trade furs to Canada for 10gpt + 6 gold

Assur Swap Great Mosque to Royal Garrison I did not look to see that Royal Garrison is obsoleted by Renaissance.
Ellipi Swap Great Mosque to Castle
Uruk Swap Great Mosque to Castle

By Orebro: Mullah converts beserker to monk (1,1)
Trebuchet kills pike (2,1)
Trebuchet kills pike (3,1)
Orebro is captured.

By Falun: Knight kills beserker (4,1)

Between Turn: Babylon Great Guild > Knight; Eridu Market > Castle

1480AD
By Visby: Knight kills pike (5,1);
Knight kills pike. (6,1)
Knight kills pike. (7,1)
Visby is captured.

By Falun: Game saved because I am paranoid.
Knight kills Pike and promoted to elite. (8,1)
Game saved again because I am paranoid.
Elite Knight kills Pike (9,1)
Game saved again because I am paranoid.
Elite Enslaver kills Beserker (10,1)
Falun is captured.
We have destroyed the Solid Scandinavians.

Looks like NP was correct and settler got killed when we captured Stockholm.
Game saved again because I am paranoid.

Between Turn:
By Ellips: Chinese Yogi converts Endidu Warrior (10,2)
Czar’s Gold Mosque > Castle
Assur Royal Garrison > Castle
Ellipi Castle > Great Mosque
Akkad Great Mosque > Castle
Zyr Granary > Windmill
Ur Temple > Marketplace

1490AD Endidu Warrior kills Yogi (11,2) Warrior promoted to veteran.
Trade Theology to Carthage for 42 gpt + 45 gold
Get Clockworks from Inca for Saltpeter+Elephants+Furs+71gpt+104 gold
Post war clean up begins.

1500AD Some troops heal, some troops move to the west.
Trade Clockworks to Carthage for 31 gpt + 7 gold

1505AD Some troops heal, some troops move to the west.

1510AD Some troops heal, some troops move to the west.
We meet the Spanish.

1515AD
Our Mullah converts a Chinese bowman to a monk, by site of our next city. (11,3)
1520AD
We Enslave a Chinese bowman, by site of our next city. (12,3)
1525AD
Our Mullah converts a French Spearman to a monk, by Eridu. (13,3)

Some trades deals ended this turn and we are making about 250 gpt.

I upgraded some Warriors and Pikemen to Arquebuises.

NOTE: For some reason, at the start of every turn the Domestic Advisor changes the science rate from 0% to 20%. I Reset it to 0% each turn; once we became a Monarchy. We get credited the gold and then the rate is back up to 20%.

Here is the save I left 1 Warrior moving who could be upgraded if you want.

The newest settler can move into NP's spot five this next turn. Though 1 sw of that spot might be something to consider. If that spot is settled a culture bomb would bring the saltpeter colony into the city's third ring and free up 2 warriors. A monk is close by in Ur.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Here is our Empire as of 1425AD

The newly conquered Vikings.

Spoiler :

The western part of our Empire with the soon to be added lands of the Chinese.

Spoiler :

 

[Northern Pike]

Fine work.

NOTE: For some reason, at the start of every turn the Domestic Advisor changes the science rate from 0% to 20%. I Reset it to 0% each turn; once we became a Monarchy. We get credited the gold and then the rate is back up to 20%.

This is because in CCM, most governments are capped with regard to how they can set the sliders, and monarchy can only go up to 70% in any one category. Hence the game system is constantly resetting your 9-0-1 to 7-2-1. Your workaround to get more gold is clever, but our usual conclusion has been that evading Civinator's intentions for the mod like this is exploitative. So we probably won't do it in this game, unless we decide that Civinator's nerfing of monarchy justifies it. Thus the healthy 253 gpt we're showing at the moment is deceptive, unfortunately.

Edit: At the allowed 7-2-1 we're at 173 gpt, despite a brutal 207 gpt in unit costs. That's still better than I expected for our early turns in monarchy.

 

[Northern Pike]

The newest settler can move into NP's spot five this next turn. Though 1 sw of that spot might be something to consider. If that spot is settled a culture bomb would bring the saltpeter colony into the city's third ring and free up 2 warriors. A monk is close by in Ur.

I'm glad you're considering alternatives, but this change would give the new city seven desert tiles rather than the three we're already accepting. Also, culture bombs are so essential to the hard wars we fight in this era that we almost never squander them on peaceful uses.

Edit: Very nice MM of Assur for one-turn arqs.

 

[Northern Pike]

We're listed as weak relative to the Chinese, predictably, so we'll need to build a lot of units in the next round, whether or not we actually attack China in the next ten turns. I'd suggest that our native towns (plus Cathyton, but excluding Nippur and the new one) should build windmills, town clocks, and castles, as they need them, and otherwise only military. (Ellipi can complete its great mosque, of course.) Since the slider restrictions for monarchy are going to force us to 7-0-3, we'll have fairly happy cities and more happiness buildings aren't a priority.

 

[LKendter]

ROSTER:

LKendter
Greebley
Jersey Joe
Elephantium (up)
Northern Pike (on deck)

 

[Jersey Joe]

Fine work.

This is because in CCM, most governments are capped with regard to how they can set the sliders, and monarchy can only go up to 70% in any one category. Hence the game system is constantly resetting your 9-0-1 to 7-2-1. Your workaround to get more gold is clever, but our usual conclusion has been that evading Civinator's intentions for the mod like this is exploitative. So we probably won't do it in this game, unless we decide that Civinator's nerfing of monarchy justifies it. Thus the healthy 253 gpt we're showing at the moment is deceptive, unfortunately.

Edit: At the allowed 7-2-1 we're at 173 gpt, despite a brutal 207 gpt in unit costs. That's still better than I expected for our early turns in monarchy.

I never intended to be "clever" and exploit the mod. The description only refers to a 70% maximum for research. If I had know I should not use 9-0-1, I would have been at 7-0-3 and never renewed the incense deal. Instead I would have traded Fur for gpt.

 

[Northern Pike]

No problem. Of course you couldn't know our house rule, and you're right to point out that the description in the Civilopedia is misleadingly limited.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I purposely did not build a Town Clock in Babylon since it would not get Babylon to 40 hammers (1 turn Arqs) I figured less hammers are lost build 2 turn knights until Babylon grew large enough that the Clock would help (or slavery becomes obsolete).
In about 8 turns when Ellipi reaches size 15, with 2-3 more mined hills it should be able to 1 turn build knights.

 

[Northern Pike]

Thanks for the explanation. Our getting our best towns to one-turn unit production is vital in the era of 4-4 attacks and heavy losses--although if we're lucky we may be able to fight the Chinese at 4-3, since they don't have Gunpowder yet.

 

[Elephantium]

I've got it.

My plan:
Settle on Spot 5, limiting desert tiles to 3.
Move the bulk of our forces to the Chinese border.
Produce units like mad, and send them west.
Don't bother with happy buildings - the lux slider is already higher than we need.

 

[Northern Pike]

Sounds good.

It would be really troublesome to have big Chinese stacks on the hills adjacent to Ellipi where we couldn't prudently attack them. We'll want to protect the hill/saltpetre source in that area, too. So it would be very useful war preparation if we were able to build fortifications on those three hills.