London calling [Student tuition fees and the protests]

In my personal view the state should sponsor high education because it's a value for the country itself.
In the west, the only way to compete internationally is by having the best educated people ... if a country let its education system go down the drain it's destined to see its economy go down in the drain too in the long term.

The approach to support high education is different in many countries.
For example in Italy each university can define its own maximum fees, the more prestigious universities have higher costs (and usually higher ROI for the students).

However the fees are "discounted" depending on your and your family income (Italian stay "at home" far much longer than their north Europeans counterparts).
So if your family income is over a certain threshold you pay full fee, but under that the fee is reduced until goes down to zero for people with income is under a certain level.
If I remember correctly there are 14 levels (brackets) of income.
At the same time one can access to some scholarships.

The Italian system is based uniquely on wealth and tries to equate people to each other: If you can pay, you pay full price, if you are poor you pay less.
It allows people from every class of society to access to high education if they wish to.
The system also take in consideration the fact that in Italy young people remain "under their parents roof" for very long time... being 30 and live with your parents is not shameful.

Rich people pay larger fees indirectly subsidizing their poorer fellows.
The state will gain buy a larger number of educated workforce (better job, better salaries, better tax revenues and consumer spending)

The MOST expensive university in Italy will cost you a maximum of 7000£ a year (if your yearly income is more than 75000€ / 64000£ ).



The Scandinavian (Swedish) system is a bit different.
The students get loans from the state at a very low interest rate to be paid back once at work.
Part of the loan is in reality free money (no need to pay back) the other part is a real loan.
The amount of money you receive depends on how many exams you pass... good students get more.

This is a way, again to equate people: rich and poor can both access all higher education, with a small twist to give more to worthy students.
As far as I know there is not difference in the money you receive depending on the type of study you choose..
The system is not strongly based on wealth because Scandinavian young get "kicked out" of their parents' home when they are 18.

The state is a loaning entity in this case, with a long term bet to get paid back when the students will get a job (you have to pay back the loan when you have a job, but you dont pay if you don't have a job).
Naturally the state also gain from a more educated population, better jobs, etc.

Unfortunately (in my personal view) the system gives the same money to students of engineering as students of medieval Aramaic poetry (in which cases the chances of ROI are pretty much zero).

UK system is just screwed. :)


If you interested in the cost of studying in a university in Italy:
Spoiler :


In Italy, where I studied computer science, tuition costs are relative to your and your family income.
There is a very handy calculator (unfortunately only in italian language): http://epheso.24oreborsaonline.ilsol...ing/School.asp

The tuition fee (university taxes in italian "slang") are proportional to your family income and to the university of choice.
In the University where I studied the tuition fee for 5 years of study is 0 (completely free) for the lowest income bracket (from o to 15K euro) and 9670 euro for the top income bracket (over 75K euro per year).
There are about 14 income brackets, so I'm not going to report them all.

A private university would charge much more.
Example Bocconi University in Milan:
0-15k : 22584 euro
over 75K : 41378 euro
But I guess that's the most expensive university in the country.... and its fees are about 7000 pounds per year!


Universities in poorer regions also cost less than in the most affluent areas.
For example the maximum tuition fee for the university in Enna (in the middle of Sicily) will cost you only 7987 euro for 5 years.

 
£6000 is ridiculously high. Brazil's PhDs cost less than an X-Box for the whole course, and they are the most expensive ones.

For the 100th time: you are not Brazilian, you know nothing about Brazil, and if you want to avoid humiliating yourself you ought to stop making ridiculously wrong statements like the above.

In Brazil superior education either costs nothing, at a public university, or costs a small fortune, at a private institution. The thing is, there is only so much capacity at the Federal institutions (which are typically the best), so in practice only very good students manage to get accepted, and very good students come overwhelmingly from good private schools, which are extremely expensive.

So well-off individuals like me go to federal universities for free, while the doorman that works at my apartment building has to use nearly all his wage to send his kid to a crappy private university (true story, both of them). There are also good private universities, but they cost a lot. My friends who did not manage to get approved at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro (UFRJ, where I studied), had to pay about R$ 2500 (~US$ 1500) per month to study engineering. That's 18,000 USD per year.

That's also roughly the yearly price to get a phd. And I do believe 18,000 USD is a little more expensive than a X-Box.

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I really see nothing absurd with charging the british students L$ 6,000. Universities are not for everyone, they are for a privileged minority and it's only fair that said minority bears a good part of the cost. Can't they get loans at low interest rates and repay them once they get a good job? And if they don't expect to get a job good enough to pay such a small loan, isn't it wise to think about not going to college in the first place?
 
Actually the problem is that rich families can and do save for their children's education, whereas poor families can't.
Is proper planning the sole province of rich people with babies?

Edit: For comparison's sake £6,000, would have only required a parent to have saved £27.78 a month when their children were young.
 
If you're going to define "proper planning" as having a spare 20K lying around, then yes.
 
Planning ?
If you have to spend a significant portion of your income for sustenance what's there to plan ?
 
If you're going to define "proper planning" as having a spare 20K lying around, then yes.
I agree £92.60 a month (less than that if he works) seems like a huge hurdle to climb for a parent hoping a child goes to Uni.
 
Is proper planning the sole province of rich people with babies?

Edit: For comparison's sake £6,000, would have only required a parent to have saved £27.78 a month when their children were young.

Only £27.78 a month? :wow:
 
Is proper planning the sole province of rich people with babies?

Edit: For comparison's sake £6,000, would have only required a parent to have saved £27.78 a month when their children were young.
For comparison's sake, £6,000 is about 1/3rd of what it costs to put one of your children through university.
 
So, £3 a day is what will be necessary to put one child through university? Ah, the joys of being rich.
 
For comparison's sake, £6,000 is about 1/3rd of what it costs to put one of your children through university.
The average family in the UK has around 1.8 kids. Adjust the £92.60 a month to taste and factor in college jobs.

So, £3 a day is what will be necessary to put one child through university? Ah, the joys of being rich.
How poor are we making these hypothetical people?
 
For comparison's sake, £6,000 is about 1/3rd of what it costs to put one of your children through university.
I think he was trying to say how much one has to save before sending a child to university.

1 year costs £6000, lets multiply for the typical 5 years of a master degree, and then double it to make sure we have some spare in cover for inflation and other expenses.
This means $60000, that is £3333 a year (from 0 to 18 years old) or £277 a month.

I still think that £6000 a year for university is too much.
 
£100 per month. For 18 years. When they're living on minimum wage of £1000 per month. Before tax. Great plan!
 
A poor family is not allowed to have savings of £20k.

Benefits are withdrawn if you have that level of savings, starts at £6k.

So a poor family who have an intelligent child will have their benefits progressively withdrawn over the years as they save for the possibility of one of their children going to university.

From redundancy expert

How the Amount of Your Savings Affects Your Eligibility for State Benefits

For those benefits which are affected by savings, the basic rule is that if you have savings above the upper savings limit, which is currently £16,000, you will not be eligible to receive any benefit. If you have savings below the lower savings limit, currently £6000, your benefits will be unaffected. (Note that these values can change over time, so you will need to check for the latest values.)

For savings in between the two limits, your savings are assumed to yield a weekly “tariff income” of £1 for every £250 of savings. This equates to an assumed annual tariff income of approximately £50 for every £250 of savings, equivalent to an interest rate of 20%, which is clearly absurd and unattainable in the real world. Nonetheless, this is the basis the government uses for their calculations. The benefit payments you receive each week will be reduced by your assumed tariff income. So, if the lower limit is £6000, and you have £10,000 saved, £4000 of that will be counted. £4000 divided by 250 is 16, so you will get £16 less per week in benefits.
 
@Silurian: That's an excellent point...

I think he was trying to say how much one has to save before sending a child to university.

1 year costs £6000, lets multiply for the typical 5 years of a master degree, and then double it to make sure we have some spare in cover for inflation and other expenses.
This means $60000, that is £3333 a year (from 0 to 18 years old) or £277 a month.

I still think that £6000 a year for university is too much.
When I said that £6,000 was 1/3rd of what it cost, I meant that living expenses counted for the other 2/3rds.

A bachelor's degree is 3 years, 4 yrs for masters. When I was in university I spent about £1,000-£1,100 per month on food, bills and rent (rent alone was at least half that, but this was in London where rent is high). So per year that's already around £20,000; over 3 years that's £60,000. At an average interest rate of 3% per year, you'd need to save £210 per month per child for 18 years. That's simply unaffordable for poor families.

If you went to a university in a cheap place to rent, maybe you could get away with only spending half what I did on rent in London, so call it £750 per month. That's £15,000 per year; £45,000 over 3 years. You'd need to save £160 per month per child for 18 years.
 
Traitorfish said:
But you have Christmas in the Summer! I don't think my mind could deal with that.

Its White Australia, not Red Australia.
 
£100 per month. For 18 years. When they're living on minimum wage of £1000 per month. Before tax. Great plan!

What's the percentage of kids from minimum wage families that go to college?

What's the percentage of overal british kids that go to college?
 
Overall average is a little under half.

I don't know what it is from min wage families. No doubt less, and no doubt it would be higher if they could afford it...
 
Overall average is a little under half.

I don't know what it is from min wage families. No doubt less, and no doubt it would be higher if they could afford it...

First let me say that little under half is rather impressive.

But back to my point. I think its safe to assume that the little under half of kids that go to college overwhelmingly belog to the richer half of British society. So increasing the subsidy given to them means increasing the subsidy paid by the poorer half that does not go to college to the richer half that goes to college.

The government should come up with alternative schemes to make it easier for bright kids from poor families to get superior education, like merit scholarships and zero interest loans. The rest of the kids can and should pay a greater amount. They can take loans and pay them back once they have a good job (and if they don't expect to have a good job they shouldn't go to college).

The bottom line is that the kids breaking stuff and vandalising other people's property belong overwhelmingly to the richer part of society. Calling them spoiled kids is not that far off.

And it's always important to remember a place with a strong academicist bias like CFC that going to college is not the only way to have a decent life.
 
This reporter says university fees will be tripling from £3,000 to £9,000.

Also, this.
 
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