Lore and Fictional History

You don't want Eru or the Valar to fight evil. I've completely forgotten the reason why but it is along the lines of: "it makes things worse". Maybe the breaking of Beleriand?

Thats why the Valar send the Istari to ME to try and influence the events rather then use there full powers.
 
Right. But that had a whole reshaping of Arda as its consequence so maybe if he does something, it doesn't work without collateral damage?
Perhaps it had something to do with the fact Numenor was created specificaly for the men that had aided the Elves or the Doom of Man? I seem to recall something about that.

I can't find my copy of the Simlarillion (namely, the Akabelleth) so I can't check on that.
 
I knew that.

From what I read on Wikipedia, it appears that the Valar were unable to do anything against the Numenorians as they were their 'guardians' so they had to call on Eru. It wasn't that Eru was unwilling, but his actions were constrained by the tasks of the Valar.
 
I don't see how any of the mentioned IP can stand up to Tolkien as far as impressive lore goes. He's got everything from a couple of fairly complete languages (and fragments of many more) to different calendars running concurrently, detailed histories, truckloads of poetry in various languages, a fair bit of mythology, you name it. And he was the first to attempt something like that. Everyone else who tries is just imitating. The only thing missing is religion.
Eh. Jerry West might have been an amazing self-made guard, an original prototype, and one of the ten best players ever, but he's not the best self-made guard ever. :p
 
I've always found M.A.R. Barker's "Tekumél" invented world an interesting concept. The feller seems to have created at least as many languages as Tolkien, but as a professional anthropologist of non-western societies. (He was a far crappier novelist though.)
http://www.tekumel.com/index.html

I once had an idea of writing a kind of "comparative history of anthropological imagination" exemplifying it with Tolkien (19th c. comparative linguistics), Robert E. Howard, of Conan-fame (world's an interesting mess of turn-of-the-century 1900 archaeological and anthropological popular ideas, not least popular theories of race), and M.A.R. Barker (post WWII cultural anthropology).

Barker's Tekumél setting is largely based on things like the Mesoamerican high cultures and was apparently heavily influenced by his own experiences as a field anthropologist in Indonesia (iirc, been a long time since I thought and read about these things).
 
As I've been rereading the three Lord of the Rings novels (up to page 350 something), I'm disappointed with the amount of work that went on creating this world. Not that it isn't impressive and well thought out, but I'm disappointed that it doesn't add much to my experience reading the story being told. In fact, I feel like it hurt the actual story more than it helped.

I remember a scene from Clerks II, when Randall is moaning about how bad the LotR movies were, "Three movies of walking. Three movies about guys walking to a [effing] volcano." And it applies to my reaction to the novels as well.

It seems like more words and paragraphs are devoted to describing every single scenery and landscape, making references to lore that the reader isn't fully privy to (like I'm not part of some inside joke), and it makes me want to skim along until there is some dialogue or actual plot happening.

tl;dr. Too much landscape/scenery description and not enough plot. Well... there is enough plot, but the ratio of plot:scenery is bonkers IMHO.
 
Also, most of the plot is ripped out of Welsh and Norse myth anyway, and much of the lore is implausible in context. :p
 
I really liked reading the history of the Elder Scrolls world. I was really amazed at how alive they made the early days of Tamiriels colonization from men and mer. It excited my imagination like reading about early real explorers. And enjoy watching them expand the story and culture of peoples of Tamirel.
 
Almost everyone agrees that Tolkien's landscape descriptions are trite and his songs and poems are distracting and not really good. That's not really what his worldbuilding is about, though, at least not directly.

I wouldn't even say that I think LotR was a good read. The Silmarillion, on the other hand, was.

My suggested reading order: LotR -> Silmarillion -> Silmarillion -> LotR.
 
As I've been rereading the three Lord of the Rings novels (up to page 350 something), I'm disappointed with the amount of work that went on creating this world. Not that it isn't impressive and well thought out, but I'm disappointed that it doesn't add much to my experience reading the story being told. In fact, I feel like it hurt the actual story more than it helped.

You have to remember that Tolkien wasn't trying to write a hit novel that would top the bestseller lists. He was (re)creating a fictitious mythology using the languages and lore of other cultures. Tolkien was a linguist - a scholar - first and foremost, not a novelist. In all the hype since Peter Jackson's movies, people seem to forget that the actual story in LotR is almost an afterthought, an entry point into Middle-Earth; a way to connect to this vast, epic world that Tolkien created. It's not the equivalent of Twilight or Harry Potter or any other popular fiction that was intended to be popular fiction.

Unfortunately, this misunderstand leads people into the opinions you've expressed, because they come in expecting storytelling on par with current popular fiction (which is, incidentally, aimed at a 5th-grade reading level) and instead they get what feels (to them) like old, musty, boring, archaic history papers about some dumb elves and crap that never even existed.
 
So if you include works of fiction/lore that are comprised of contributions beyond the original author(s), what else should be included in this discussion?

I'm not familiar with the size and extent to a lot of culminated worlds of fiction.

It might also make sense to only include "published" contributions, so fanfics posted online would be excluded.

Star Wars definitely comes to mind with all the novels and other media.

The Forgotten Realms in the Dungeons and Dragons world also comes to mind. I'm not a pen-paper RPG player, but I know there are lots of video games and novels besides the "official" books put out for RPG purposes.
 
Eh. Jerry West might have been an amazing self-made guard, an original prototype, and one of the ten best players ever, but he's not the best self-made guard ever. :p

Your analogy is incomprehensible to me, but I agree that the first isn't necessarily the best. In this case, however, it seems to me that Tolkien set the bar pretty impressively high when it comes to lore creation.

As I've been rereading the three Lord of the Rings novels (up to page 350 something), I'm disappointed with the amount of work that went on creating this world. Not that it isn't impressive and well thought out, but I'm disappointed that it doesn't add much to my experience reading the story being told. In fact, I feel like it hurt the actual story more than it helped.

I remember a scene from Clerks II, when Randall is moaning about how bad the LotR movies were, "Three movies of walking. Three movies about guys walking to a [effing] volcano." And it applies to my reaction to the novels as well.

It seems like more words and paragraphs are devoted to describing every single scenery and landscape, making references to lore that the reader isn't fully privy to (like I'm not part of some inside joke), and it makes me want to skim along until there is some dialogue or actual plot happening.

tl;dr. Too much landscape/scenery description and not enough plot. Well... there is enough plot, but the ratio of plot:scenery is bonkers IMHO.

It's not three novels, it's a single novel published in three volumes. And yes, you're quite right, it's not really a very good novel, at least in some respects. Salman Rushdie made the interesting comment that the Jackson films are better than the book, because Jackson is better at film-making than Tolkien was at novel-writing, and I think it's quite true. But none of this is relevant to the question of Tolkien's skill at lore creation, which was almost entirely concerned with the history of his world rather than its geography. The striking thing about The Lord of the Rings is that there are frequent references to heroes, places, and other things of the past, and these aren't just names that Tolkien made up to give the impression of antiquity - he'd already worked them all out in detail.

You have to remember that Tolkien wasn't trying to write a hit novel that would top the bestseller lists. He was (re)creating a fictitious mythology using the languages and lore of other cultures. Tolkien was a linguist - a scholar - first and foremost, not a novelist. In all the hype since Peter Jackson's movies, people seem to forget that the actual story in LotR is almost an afterthought, an entry point into Middle-Earth; a way to connect to this vast, epic world that Tolkien created. It's not the equivalent of Twilight or Harry Potter or any other popular fiction that was intended to be popular fiction.

Unfortunately, this misunderstand leads people into the opinions you've expressed, because they come in expecting storytelling on par with current popular fiction (which is, incidentally, aimed at a 5th-grade reading level) and instead they get what feels (to them) like old, musty, boring, archaic history papers about some dumb elves and crap that never even existed.

It depends which book you're talking about though, doesn't it? The Silmarillion and related works were what Tolkien put together for his own amusement, with the intention of creating a made-up history rather than an entertaining story. The Hobbit was meant to be an entertaining story for children, but he stuck in a few references to his private mythology along the way. And The Lord of the Rings was written purely at the behest of his publishers, who found that extracting it from Tolkien made stones seem sanguinous by comparison - they practically had to lock him in a room and force him to write it. And as he wrote it he found himself making it far more deliberately set in the same "world" as his private histories, and more of a sequel to them than to The Hobbit itself, which is why it starts off all jolly and accessible and by the end everyone's speaking like characters from Ivanhoe. So it was meant to be a blockbuster popular novel, but somehow turned into something weirder and more scholarly (in a weird way). The fact that despite this it was a blockbuster popular novel is just one of those things. I suppose people loved the idea of this world with a staggeringly detailed history and lore which was mostly only hinted at.
 
It's not three novels, it's a single novel published in three volumes. And yes, you're quite right, it's not really a very good novel, at least in some respects. Salman Rushdie made the interesting comment that the Jackson films are better than the book, because Jackson is better at film-making than Tolkien was at novel-writing, and I think it's quite true. But none of this is relevant to the question of Tolkien's skill at lore creation, which was almost entirely concerned with the history of his world rather than its geography. The striking thing about The Lord of the Rings is that there are frequent references to heroes, places, and other things of the past, and these aren't just names that Tolkien made up to give the impression of antiquity - he'd already worked them all out in detail.
Well said.

Tolkien's almost unique in that he wrote his stories to portray a world that he had already created, as opposed to creating a world to use it as scenery for a story you'd like to write.
 
Well said.

Tolkien's almost unique in that he wrote his stories to portray a world that he had already created, as opposed to creating a world to use it as scenery for a story you'd like to write.

"Almost"? Do you know anyone else that crazy? :D
 
It depends which book you're talking about though, doesn't it? The Silmarillion and related works were what Tolkien put together for his own amusement, with the intention of creating a made-up history rather than an entertaining story. The Hobbit was meant to be an entertaining story for children, but he stuck in a few references to his private mythology along the way. And The Lord of the Rings was written purely at the behest of his publishers, who found that extracting it from Tolkien made stones seem sanguinous by comparison - they practically had to lock him in a room and force him to write it. And as he wrote it he found himself making it far more deliberately set in the same "world" as his private histories, and more of a sequel to them than to The Hobbit itself, which is why it starts off all jolly and accessible and by the end everyone's speaking like characters from Ivanhoe. So it was meant to be a blockbuster popular novel, but somehow turned into something weirder and more scholarly (in a weird way). The fact that despite this it was a blockbuster popular novel is just one of those things. I suppose people loved the idea of this world with a staggeringly detailed history and lore which was mostly only hinted at.

Yes, it does depend on the book, but your point about Tolkien basically being forced to write LotR so his publishers could sell some novels is what I was getting at. And I think it's awesome that the books turned out to be so popular and widely-read over time, and were appreciated for what they are when they were first published. Unfortunately, that appreciation seems more rare with younger readers in the current day.

I just think too many people see the LotR movies, enjoy them immensely, and then go diving into the books expecting them to be 21st century pop fiction. When they're confronted with a lack of explosions, gratuitous sex, time-travel, talking robots, and scantily-clad femme fatales, there's apparently quite a shock to the system. :lol:
 
I just think too many people see the LotR movies, enjoy them immensely, and then go diving into the books expecting them to be 21st century pop fiction. When they're confronted with a lack of explosions, gratuitous sex, time-travel, talking robots, and scantily-clad femme fatales, there's apparently quite a shock to the system. :lol:

Why would they expect any of that in the books if they had just seen the films? I don't recall Peter Jackson adding robots to the fellowship.

Oh...Legolas. Right.
 
It's not that I think the book are bad. And I don't mind the history lessons. But the landscaping and scenery descriptions are tedious.
 
I only said "almost" because I feared someone would prove me wrong with some obscure author I don't know if I didn't. That's what the internet makes of us :D
 
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