Aleph-Null
What Would Optimus Do?
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Hotpoint
Rome Treaty Legions
Aleph-Null said:
If that is truly your answer then I'm afraid you really don't grasp the question and have no appreciation of the inherrent weakness of your argument. The issue is one of intellectual cohesiveness and I'm afraid your cherry-picking approach to history and national identity just doesn't stand up. It's really little more than just willful ignorance and does you no credit Sir.
To use an analogy would you consider it okay for a citizen of the USSR in the 1970's to say that his was a truly great and noble nation in all respects because they defeated Nazi Germany and put the first man in space and it was perfectly reasonable to forget about Stalins purges because they happened back in the 1930's on someone elses watch?
Aleph-Null said:
If you choose to ignore the dark side of your history you take no warning from it. That's dangerous and perhaps a little cowardly because you are leaving your demons unfaced for the sake of expediency.
Aleph-Null said:
Who gets to choose who the proper Americans are, and what those principles are though?
McCarthy perhaps? Or is the House Un-American Activities Committee something else from history to be swept aside because it doesn't fit in with your rose-tinted view of the United States?
Aleph-Null
What Would Optimus Do?
As a demonstration, I will show you how to build a successful economy:
*ahem*
YOU NEED A NEW INTEL PROCESSOR DEVELOPED THROUGH ADVANCED NANOTECHNOLOGY RESEARCH.
YOU MUST HAVE THE NEW COMPUTER-MIND INTERFACE THAT WILL ELIMINATE YOUR NEED FOR UNSIGHTLY KEYBOARDS AND MICE.
BUY TODAY: NEW CARBON NANOTUBE, LIGHT WEIGHT DURABLE AIRCRAFT AND AUTOMOBILES.
CONTACT YOUR CONGRESSMAN TODAY: INVEST IN AMERICA'S FUTURE! BUILD NEW AEROSPACE PLANE FROM CARBON NANOTUBES! PLANES TODAY! SPACE ELEVATOR TOMORROW!
That's how the economy works. All that other stuff is just crap. America's Investors understand the products their investing in, even if some people don't.
*ahem*
YOU NEED A NEW INTEL PROCESSOR DEVELOPED THROUGH ADVANCED NANOTECHNOLOGY RESEARCH.
YOU MUST HAVE THE NEW COMPUTER-MIND INTERFACE THAT WILL ELIMINATE YOUR NEED FOR UNSIGHTLY KEYBOARDS AND MICE.
BUY TODAY: NEW CARBON NANOTUBE, LIGHT WEIGHT DURABLE AIRCRAFT AND AUTOMOBILES.
CONTACT YOUR CONGRESSMAN TODAY: INVEST IN AMERICA'S FUTURE! BUILD NEW AEROSPACE PLANE FROM CARBON NANOTUBES! PLANES TODAY! SPACE ELEVATOR TOMORROW!
That's how the economy works. All that other stuff is just crap. America's Investors understand the products their investing in, even if some people don't.
Aleph-Null
What Would Optimus Do?
Hotpoint said:
I would say I understand the question just fine. It is you, who fail to understand the answer. Because, you my friend, are fishing for something.
Hotpoint
Rome Treaty Legions
Aleph-Null said:
Fishing? I'm beginning to think I'm going to need a Depth Charge!
Your answer only makes sense if you don't address the whole issue. Basically you're adopting Plato's idea of the noble lie/national creation myth and trying to apply it to a society that is open to other nations that are perfectly aware it's just propaganda.
Being economical with the truth is as much a form of lie as any other and how can good really come from a society that is built on myth not reality?
Aleph-Null
What Would Optimus Do?
please do feel free to inform us all about reality. this should be fun. i can't think of anything that you've said that can't be dismissed as propaganda.Hotpoint said:
Raw is War?
Soul Reaper
I'm so glad Aleph-Null wasn't born in nazi germany and was head of propaganda...
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Aleph-Null
What Would Optimus Do?
Your anti-american propaganda is not well-received.Raw is War? said:
Hotpoint
Rome Treaty Legions
Aleph-Null said:
Feel free to cite any points I made that can be dismissed as merely propaganda and I'll happily argue the issue.
As for your sweeping assertion that ""i can't think of anything that you've said that can't be dismissed as propaganda" that just makes you sound silly because a lot of what I said was just statement of historical fact. And in any case I'm not the one choosing to ignore certain aspects of history because they don't fit in with my chosen world view. I'm certainly willing to accept the nastier things that the UK has done as being a source of national guilt, along with the good things as a source of national pride, propaganda isn't necesarily flat-out lying it can simply be leaving out half the story to put a positive spin on what remains.
Meanwhile would you care to respond to my analogy about the USSR?
Having just read all of this, there is a fair bit of patriotic sniping going on here...
First up, for me, is this. If you want to know why people are ashamed of activities of others, it's because of this - people are ashamed that THEIR culture can produce anything that is as bad as whatever it is they're ashamed of. For example, take Germany. 30 years ago, if you tried to get anything about Hitler and Nazi Germany out of a German, you would find they are ashamed of it, even if they didn't have a part in it.
True, admittedly some of the population of Germany were at the time from the same generation of people who had served under Hitler, but all the same, it's the culture shock thing which affects people - when your way of living, your entire social policy is revealed to have flaws and when you consider your country to be at a height of it's power/history, you start to realise you can't believe you supported it. That's why people are ashamed of their countries past - some of the things that have happened before are NOT excusable, and realising that contributes towards progress of social policy - you can avoid the mistakes people have made before.
Second of all - there is absolutely no way in any shade of hell that the UK would remotely entertain being a State of the US. Believe me, you might have your declaration of independence, but as was said before, that would restrict both your country, and the UK itself would most definately disagree with it.
Fact is, if the UK was a member state of the US, how many priveledges would it have to give up? Do you think the entire population of the UK would want to sit and wait for Congress to argue whether or not a small socialist island should get it's rights? For me, I feel we'd be treated effectively like a colony. A distant branch not worth thinking about, and for one of the world's previous empires, to be regulated to a backwater US 'colony'... I don't think that is remotely likely to happen. Self-determination would play a big role. As was said, America would have hardly been likely to listen to British rulings anytime soon, but the inverse would run just as true - the British would be unlikely to listen to American rulings anytime soon, and would be quite possibly the most defiant state you ever adopted.
Also, on this topic - colonisation does not mean forced invasion and taking over. India was taken over by the British without so much as killing any leaders or mass slaughter of people, yet was a British colony. Working your way into the ruling system and taking over that way still counts as a colony.
Ultimately... I'm proud to be British, and I don't pretend I'm not. I realise, however, exactly the reason why America and Britain are different. I don't hate America, but both the British and Americans live different lifestyles - we do things our way, you do things your way. I would say, to a degree, Britain is pretty isolationist in terms of the population's viewpoint. They seem to want to be left out of things for now, and after two world wars, a few middle-east wars... who can blame them? We fight our wars in modern times to defend our own freedoms and the freedom of others at times. (Sounds a bit patriotic... can't really think up a better phrasing for it)
Some of the things the British have done are inexcusable. Even though I was not a part of them, I wouldn't want to see them happen again. Slavery is just one of the things.
A side question here is this... How would a member state of the US go about actually LEAVING the United States? Last time that happened, a fair few people got shot dead for it. As far as freedom goes... what happened to freedom to leave the United States? For the ultimate democracy to not allow that does question the title of 'democracy', as only empires practise subjugation of territories under it's control.
First up, for me, is this. If you want to know why people are ashamed of activities of others, it's because of this - people are ashamed that THEIR culture can produce anything that is as bad as whatever it is they're ashamed of. For example, take Germany. 30 years ago, if you tried to get anything about Hitler and Nazi Germany out of a German, you would find they are ashamed of it, even if they didn't have a part in it.
True, admittedly some of the population of Germany were at the time from the same generation of people who had served under Hitler, but all the same, it's the culture shock thing which affects people - when your way of living, your entire social policy is revealed to have flaws and when you consider your country to be at a height of it's power/history, you start to realise you can't believe you supported it. That's why people are ashamed of their countries past - some of the things that have happened before are NOT excusable, and realising that contributes towards progress of social policy - you can avoid the mistakes people have made before.
Second of all - there is absolutely no way in any shade of hell that the UK would remotely entertain being a State of the US. Believe me, you might have your declaration of independence, but as was said before, that would restrict both your country, and the UK itself would most definately disagree with it.
Fact is, if the UK was a member state of the US, how many priveledges would it have to give up? Do you think the entire population of the UK would want to sit and wait for Congress to argue whether or not a small socialist island should get it's rights? For me, I feel we'd be treated effectively like a colony. A distant branch not worth thinking about, and for one of the world's previous empires, to be regulated to a backwater US 'colony'... I don't think that is remotely likely to happen. Self-determination would play a big role. As was said, America would have hardly been likely to listen to British rulings anytime soon, but the inverse would run just as true - the British would be unlikely to listen to American rulings anytime soon, and would be quite possibly the most defiant state you ever adopted.
Also, on this topic - colonisation does not mean forced invasion and taking over. India was taken over by the British without so much as killing any leaders or mass slaughter of people, yet was a British colony. Working your way into the ruling system and taking over that way still counts as a colony.
Ultimately... I'm proud to be British, and I don't pretend I'm not. I realise, however, exactly the reason why America and Britain are different. I don't hate America, but both the British and Americans live different lifestyles - we do things our way, you do things your way. I would say, to a degree, Britain is pretty isolationist in terms of the population's viewpoint. They seem to want to be left out of things for now, and after two world wars, a few middle-east wars... who can blame them? We fight our wars in modern times to defend our own freedoms and the freedom of others at times. (Sounds a bit patriotic... can't really think up a better phrasing for it)
Some of the things the British have done are inexcusable. Even though I was not a part of them, I wouldn't want to see them happen again. Slavery is just one of the things.
A side question here is this... How would a member state of the US go about actually LEAVING the United States? Last time that happened, a fair few people got shot dead for it. As far as freedom goes... what happened to freedom to leave the United States? For the ultimate democracy to not allow that does question the title of 'democracy', as only empires practise subjugation of territories under it's control.
Winner
Diverse in Unity
Raw is War? said:
He's being too pseudo-philosophical, as Hotpoint pointed out. I know, what he mean, I had a few philosphical courses at the college and it left deep scars on my mind
Goebbels did better job, he persuaded even the common Germans
Winner
Diverse in Unity
AxiomUk said:
Good point. No US state has a right to leave the Union. So much for the ultimate freedom
I think it was also rather condescending to say "this is how an economy works", which suggest the methods are in some way intrinsically different. Sadly, such mistaken beliefs are widespread in the USA.
While it is something I consider a risk, the UK knowledge-based economy is more evolved than it's US counterpart (the latter having a 67% higher stake in manufacturing output).
The UK economy is dependent almost exclusively on banking and servicing industries (such as engineering consultants). Almost all former British manufacturing has been outsourced to the USA, and more recently China, due to labour being cheaper.
As a direct result, almost all British companies have acquired manufacturing and maintenance assets overseas, turning their UK offices towards banking, management, and consultancy.
Two massive examples are National Grid and BAE. In the 1960s during the boom of British manufacturing, both those companies manufactured in the UK employing labourers, engineers, and production managers.
Today it is very different, with their remaining British offices acting as consultants to their numerous US manufacturing and maintenance plants.
Tomorrow, those jobs may be moved to China, India, or Brazil.
Another good example is Lotus, a British car manufacturer, which seem to have little interest in manufacturing! Lotus offices in the UK concentrate on design and improving suspension or chassis of cars for rival companies. Lotus has outsourced much of it's manufacturing to the USA.
My UK-based job is as an programmer/consultant who services law firms. Manufactured parts that I use come from the USA, Taiwan or China. Incidentally, the US parts cost more and perform worse which I take as a sign that labour costs are rising too high for manufacturing to remain there.
There is no sign of UK manufacturing... we just provide services!
US economy leans more towards manufacturing than that of the UK, which is almost entirely knowledge-based, a scenario which I feel carries great risk.
While it is something I consider a risk, the UK knowledge-based economy is more evolved than it's US counterpart (the latter having a 67% higher stake in manufacturing output).
The UK economy is dependent almost exclusively on banking and servicing industries (such as engineering consultants). Almost all former British manufacturing has been outsourced to the USA, and more recently China, due to labour being cheaper.
As a direct result, almost all British companies have acquired manufacturing and maintenance assets overseas, turning their UK offices towards banking, management, and consultancy.
Two massive examples are National Grid and BAE. In the 1960s during the boom of British manufacturing, both those companies manufactured in the UK employing labourers, engineers, and production managers.
Today it is very different, with their remaining British offices acting as consultants to their numerous US manufacturing and maintenance plants.
Tomorrow, those jobs may be moved to China, India, or Brazil.
Another good example is Lotus, a British car manufacturer, which seem to have little interest in manufacturing! Lotus offices in the UK concentrate on design and improving suspension or chassis of cars for rival companies. Lotus has outsourced much of it's manufacturing to the USA.
My UK-based job is as an programmer/consultant who services law firms. Manufactured parts that I use come from the USA, Taiwan or China. Incidentally, the US parts cost more and perform worse which I take as a sign that labour costs are rising too high for manufacturing to remain there.
There is no sign of UK manufacturing... we just provide services!
US economy leans more towards manufacturing than that of the UK, which is almost entirely knowledge-based, a scenario which I feel carries great risk.
Raw is War?
Soul Reaper
It was not anti-american, i never said it was. It was anti- Aleph-Null, since it seems you have brain incapable of understanding such a simple concept.
People born in nations and nations themselves do good things and bad things.
Refusing to acknowledge the bad things, yet praising the good things done means you need to go back to basics of being taught right and wrong when growing up.
Thorgalaeg
Deity
Well, obviously nobody wants to join the US. Case closed. 
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