Many Leaders Game - Discussion Thread

[Quotey]

The main advantage of the large number of GPs in an SE is lightbulbing and trading for a massive value, not settling, but i don't see why this should be restricted. Settled GPs do not provide GP points. So long as noone goes with a wonderspam strat it'll be fine.

 

[r_rolo1]

I think that nobody poited a thing: there are ways of tackling the game without Cottages and specialists, specifically the trade routes and the religious ones. And there are always the spy economies for all tastes ( SE, CE , FE ,even religious ones( religion drops the EE spending... ) ) ....

We are going to start discussing soon what is a CE/SE and what it isn't...

IMHO The rules set of TLO is a good place to start.... I would drop the wonders rule and permit shrines, academies ,scotland yard and military academies

 

[TheLastOne36]

I think that nobody poited a thing: there are ways of tackling the game without Cottages and specialists, specifically the trade routes and the religious ones. And there are always the spy economies for all tastes ( SE, CE , FE ,even religious ones( religion drops the EE spending... ) ) ....

We are going to start discussing soon what is a CE/SE and what it isn't...

IMHO The rules set of TLO is a good place to start.... I would drop the wonders rule and permit shrines, academies ,scotland yard and military academies

That's another good point.

three more rules could be:

- No tech Stealing
- No building Shrines
- no tech trading (?not sure?)

 

[Quotey]

No tech trading neuters the SE. No tech brokering also hurts it to an extent.

 

[pholkhero]

as rolo is right, this could rapidly degenerate into endless hair-splitting, but RJ has the right idea, so let me state what i conceived of as the object of the game: to see, as many things being equal as possible, given the same start, which economy is better, the cottage- or specialist-driven one.

i can see how RJ's conception of what the game is about drives his rules, but i think i'm trending back to somewhat looser restrictions.

CE players:
* Can never *hire* specialists (only citizens), but free GPs, wonder-based ones are okay, as are using them for whatever ends. However, the SoL and Mercantilism, which *hires* a specialist for free are out. ("if you can't choose it, you can use it")
SE players:
* Can never cottage, and must raze captured ones as well.

 

[TheLastOne36]

as rolo is right, this could rapidly degenerate into endless hair-splitting, but RJ has the right idea, so let me state what i conceived of as the object of the game: to see, as many things being equal as possible, given the same start, which economy is better, the cottage- or specialist-driven one.

i can see how RJ's conception of what the game is about drives his rules, but i think i'm trending back to somewhat looser restrictions.

CE players:
* Can never *hire* specialists (only citizens), but free GPs, wonder-based ones are okay, as are using them for whatever ends. However, the SoL and Mercantilism, which *hires* a specialist for free are out. ("if you can't choose it, you can use it")
SE players:
* Can never cottage, and must raze captured ones as well.

Agreed. Is that the final decision?

 

[pholkhero]

most likely, but it won't be final until after the rules are posted so people can still yell a bit more about it

i will probably put up the thread on friday afternoon gmt (before I try some MP action w/Pawelo and others; PM me if you want in )

 

[Tatran]

I don't think a CE will ever be 100% specialist clean.
What about captured cities with settled specialists?

Here's my thought :
Great persons may only be used for a golden age in a CE.
Great generals are free from restrictions.

 

[Morganknight]

I know someone mentioned disallowing the SoL and Mercantilism for the CE group. I think in fairness you should disallow the Great Library and the Temple of Artemis as well as they both give free specialists.

Never mind, it looks like someone already suggested that. Consider this a ditto then, lol.

Picking through the leftover leaders, I will play either a Frederick SE or a Victoria CE, whichever is fine.

 

[Kanga_DU]

I like TLO's summary. That's pretty much my thoughts (or close enough to).

 

[Tatran]

Reserve a spot for me as Wang Kon.

 

[pawelo]

Basically I agree with the lines proposed by TLO, Pholk and with last point from Tatran.

You will never have a specialist free CE, but you can do your best to limitate it.
Let me sum up the acceptable limitations (IMHO):

- never settle a GP
- don't build GL, ToA, SoL nor run Mercantilism
- emphasize everything in city governor to avoid specialist assigning by the AI city govs
- when workable tiles limit is reached, hire only citizens

Glad to see the game precising itself

 

[pholkhero]

Reserve a spot for me as Wang Kon.

done.

I will play either a Frederick SE or a Victoria CE, whichever is fine.

we'll see who else signs up, but as it is, it's even with players so it's up to you which one you want ~

merged GPs dont' give GPPs right?? I didn't think they did (seems overpowered if so ~ a positive feedback loop akin to PHI/IND), so if not, then they'll be eligible

on another note: some of us DMers will be getting together for MP on: Fri @ 5pm, Sat @ 12pm & 6pm (GMT). PM me if interested ~

 

[Conroe]

lurker's comment: Are cottages really so overpowered that they need all of these restrictions? Some of these suggestions ... ... No academies or shrines? No merging? No Mercantilism, or Statue of Liberty? I guess that I always thought that the key difference between the 2 methodologies was the source of the beakers used for research. Judging from this thread, the key difference seems to be the use (or lack thereof) of Great People. Would the extra hammers from a free engineer specialist really be too imbalanced? Isn't the best way to accrue espionage points, in the early game, be to hire spy specialists? And don't most people hire a priest in order to speed up the time to acquire a shrine? Seems to me there are a lot more uses for specialists than to provide beakers towards research. And I can't help but wonder if all the handicaps are necessary (or even balanced) ...

 

[Morganknight]

I'll be Frederick then.

 

[Meatbuster]

Please reserve me a spot as one of the following leaders, in order of preference, in Cottage Spam Heaven.

1. De Gaulle
2. Asoka
3. Napoleon (no kidding)

 

[Morganknight]

I think there was some discussion about disallowing the French for the CE strategy since playing without Salons would be such a handicap.

 

[pholkhero]

lurker's comment: Are cottages really so overpowered that they need all of these restrictions?

it's not so much an overpowered issue, but since there can be NO cottages for the SE (even though most have at least the capital cottaged up), there needs to be some sort of balancing factor i think.

Please reserve me a spot as one of the following leaders, in order of preference, in Cottage Spam Heaven.

1. De Gaulle
2. Asoka
3. Napoleon (no kidding)

Will do

I think there was some discussion about disallowing the French for the CE strategy since playing without Salons would be such a handicap.

I would allow it as it falls under they "If you can't choose it (the specialist), you can use it" guideline.

sorry all ~ i will be starting up the game in a day or two now. I need to get in touch w/Oz to figure out how to do it, as well as which civs are available still for opponents, but here's the finalized roster:

Roster:
TriviAl: SE Liz
r_rolo: SE QSH
Ad Hoc: SE Ramesses
Quotey: SE Suryavarman
Kanga Du: SE Peter
Morganknight: SE Fred

Ozbenno: CE Liz
pawelo: CE Pacal
The_LastOne: CE Darius
Kodii: CE Dutch
Tatran: CE Wang Kon
Robo Kai: CE De Gaulle

 

[Tatran]

I would like to have some clearness about the rules according to great persons in a cottage economy.
I like to manipulate.

 

[Conroe]

it's not so much an overpowered issue, but since there can be NO cottages for the SE (even though most have at least the capital cottaged up), there needs to be some sort of balancing factor i think.

lurker's comment: That was my point, Pholk. I don't think it is balanced. Some of the proposals that I've seen in this thread are pretty crippling. It seems this game is going to be all about whether cottagers can remain competitive with their hands tied behind their backs. Which I'm pretty sure is not your desired intent.

Like Tatran, I'm unclear on the final rules. But it seems that if a cottager wants an Academy, they must beeline Literature. That's assuming they are even allowed an Academy. A shrine is going to be even tougher for them to acquire ...

Just a suggestion ... but maybe GP should be disallowed for both sides of the competition?