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Maritime Battles+ for VP 38

Anyways, my question is that which version of VP does the latest version of this mod work with?

I've been forced to reset my pc which meant I lost the out of date version of VP I used to play on, so I've come to seek answers from the source. It says MB+ for VP 20.1, but as far as I know hasn't the latest version of VP only just reached 3.0?

You're right -- the "20.1" loosely matches the iterations this mod has experienced over the past 5+ years, unrelated to VP's own numbering. Much of these increments were from early experimental versions that changed rapidly. This 20.1 version should be compatible with current version of VP, it was updated for 2.0 not so long ago. Mainly I wonder if the new congress updates have made anything here redundant, or otherwise conflict with recent changes, so I can't answer for sure. I'll update OP to clarify current compatibility state.

If no one else has tried recently, I'll queue up a deity game with this mod this wknd and double check. For anyone visiting here from time to time, could use your eye on balance with this mod loaded, especially where we can find simple adjustments to variables that tighten up its existing features. For example, many features in this mod hinge on whether a unit is above or below 50% hp -- I picked this value for all of the relevant thresholds I was modding just to have some consistent value, but it could be higher/lower. There are probably many variables like this that could be tweaked, I just don't have a sense of if and where these might be needed. I will probably upload a "final" version on this and archive these files for good in the near future, hoping to get any final adjustments done.

Have you considered seeking help on the Civ V Modding Helpline Server, or the Vox Populi Official Discord Server?

I will, thanks for suggestion!
 
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Tekamthi updated Maritime Battles+ (VP) with a new update entry:

withdrawals/counterattacks disabled -- performance upgrade -- storms!

The aim of this update was to get the core mechanisms into shape for use on an every-game (or almost-every) basis. Without withdrawals/counterattacks, the most apparent aspect of this mod's previous versions is gone; the result should be subtler and better fit with VP.
  1. Storms! ocean and coast now generate weather, limiting movement and visibility. Big thank you to @ghost toast for figuring out how to repurpose Mt. Fuji's clouds.
  2. withdrawals and counterattacks all disabled by default....

Read the rest of this update entry...
 
I think the dependencies are set wrong? Specifically the dependency for (4a) UI - Promotion Tree for VP. It was recently changed in version 3.7.4
 
I think this version is the first I'd consider close to fully-baked -- features here have been around for a while, just finally have them working ~efficiently, and imbalances removed or mitigated, at least enough to enable in most games. The new storms/clouds are probably the most obvious & visual addition (thank you @ghost toast ) -- the art for them is not truly a "storm" cloud (see below), but its as close as we can find within existing civ 5 animations & effects. Along with trade waters movement rules from previous versions, the seascape is a little more interesting now, while still well within AI capability. I tested v37 in 43-civ marathon through to mid-game (abandoned due to my poor governance at that point), but will only be able to find an hour here and there for gaming in jul/aug; I hope anyone interested here can keep an eye out for any bugs and odd behaviours and report back. Thanks!
Spoiler :

20230701125243_1.jpg

 
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Storms on oceans seem to allow embarked (but not naval) units to pass through them even before Astronomy.
Spoiler Screenshots :
Screenshot (368).png
Screenshot (369).png
 
ty! good catch -- pretty sure i know what's up there, will investigate this evening.

edit: should've been an easy fix, VP already has tables intended to address this -- unfortunately the fields necessary are broken! i have made git report here: https://github.com/LoneGazebo/Community-Patch-DLL/issues/9972

In the meantime, I have some ideas for alternative fixes and/or a workaround, though each is either somewhat uncertain or unideal for one reason or another. The issue here appears to be that any feature in ocean enables embarked unit to access the plot when it shouldn't -- not many mods put features in ocean tiles so probably never became apparent previously, but shouldn't work this way, imo there is bug with VP .dll causing this issue in first place. Feature or not its still ocean terrain.

Anyway will likely take me a few days, maybe til next weekend to dig into any of the workarounds.

edit 2: I've played around with the embark bug a little... if you park a pre-astro unit on an ocean storm, the game moves you if the storm changes, often into a nearby active storm plot... inadvertently, can ride the storms 🌪️⛵:c5moves:🌪️

Given embark movement for most units, most of the time, is 3 moves in the pre-astro era, and storm currently costs 2 moves, at most you can cross 1 tile ocean -- its not intended, but this bug is kinda in the spirit of this mod's purpose of increasing interesting events at sea :lol:. There are two directions I could take here that do not require a ton of time and thought, or rather a small step and a big step:
  1. Storm changes from 2 move cost to 3 move cost -- this will make it a little more of a barrier, limiting early ranged naval to only 1-move per turn in some situations, but will also end most embarked units' turns max 1-plot into ocean, and then game will bump them back (or into another storm). I am not sure there are any other 3 move cost plots in the game, but given this is in water only where mobility is high, it should be okay and is probably the best compromise for now. If VP fixes necessary DLL components then can switch back to 2 moves.
  2. Turn this bug into a feature -- ie currently this bug means getting caught in ocean storm has chance to blow your unit around: this mod has all the code pre-built for moving units around, and an early early version many years ago even had a "raft" unit that would intentionally get blown around the ocean -- I could try to make this occur consistently when ending turn in storm: if storm then moves unit gets bumped one tile randomly. I think this is more RNG than most would enjoy, however.
 
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I believe we will get .dll-side update next version of VP, fixing the pre-astronomy embarked travel in stormy oceans

beyond that, having played a few games with this version of the mod now, with modbuddy closed and just observing in-game effect, I think the storms are a little too random and haphazard in this first implementation -- they currently check for unimproved, featureless water plots and spawn in 33% of the time, with the storm generation function rotating through all major player turns (ie. on turn 1 the storms update on player 1's turn, on turn 2, player 2's, etc.)

I have some ideas of how to do this better, but they are a little complex (in the time-consuming-to-code sense). In the meantime, if anyone has any ideas for relatively simple ways to do the storm spawning in a better way than the RNG basis described above, pls share -- that'll be major focus of this mod for next revision

also, does anybody know if there are lua hooks for the VP events system? and how i'd identify the hurricane event?

I have the clouds looking much more stormy for next release....
Spoiler :
1690415999722.png
 
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My mistake in file extension; it will open in 7zip, and/or you can rename from .zip to .civ5mod and just place the file in civ mods folder, the game should be able to open it that way

I will upload future version in .civ5mod extension; pls just rename or use 7zip for any of my "zip" files uploaded to these forums.

I haven't tested yet in 3.8 but I believe the pre-astro ocean-storm-movement issue remains; the core devs have yet to track down what is causing this in .dll. (see github issue #9973). I believe there is some interest in fixing it, but not top priority; will likely take a while to track down. I've attempted the easy/obvious workarounds to make these appropriately impassable already, the bug overrides all of them.

There are a number of more drastic fixes I could attempt in the interim, I wonder what MB+ players would prefer?
  1. status quo, no change; just wait for .dll fix, and spend my own limited dev time on improving mod's feature set rather than troubleshooting non-trivial workarounds -- the movement issue is not exactly game-breaking, and is accessible to AI, though it is a minor nuisance overall
  2. no spawn of storms in ocean plots that are adjacent to coast plots, until all players have discovered astronomy -- this fix should solve the pre-astro movement bug 100% However this will prevent my next WIP update from functioning (rather than current RNG chance of storm appearing in any water plot, I am working on a procedural spawn/movement for storms to mimic RL weather systems, based on latitude -- I will have to shelve this work under this alternative, until its rolled back if/when .dll gets fixed)
  3. ocean storms are 100% impassable to all units until all players have astronomy -- I am not certain this will override the bugged movement, but I believe it will; however impassable storms just feels over-the-top for this feature, it will affect early naval units ability to "pass over" ocean tiles without stopping in them, and I may still have to make some complex exceptions not to break other things (for one, impassable storms won't spawn on ocean trade routes, and the interplay between storms and trade routes is intentional and a significant component of this mod)
  4. ocean storms are visual-only until all players have astronomy -- this would actually be a very easy fix, ocean storm won't affect movement nor vision for any unit in ocean until all players are teched up. coast storms will still behave as they do now. Its just a little immersion-breaking
Because I am optimistic the pre-astro movement issue will eventually be fixed .dll-side, and even the easiest option above is non-trivial, I'm leaning towards alternative #1, but I don't know really; a .dll fix could take months or years or never. If there's significant interest (just post your pref in discussion) for another option here from users of this mod, I will try to implement.

I currently have an updated version of this mod with more stormy-looking storms and improved compatibility for custom civs that replace lighthouse with UB (eg tlingit). Implementing my plans for procedural storm movement and spawn will take a good chunk more time, however, and I'd prefer to use my time on that feature rather than the workarounds above.
 
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Tekamthi updated Maritime Battles+ (VP) with a new update entry:

stabler, stormier storms...

  • stormier-looking storms
  • better SV icons
  • storm spawn function runs every 4th turn (rather than every turn)
  • storms have small chance to disappear on non-spawn turns
  • ocean storm movement cost increased from 2 to 3
  • water travel promos removed from barbs
  • usage of math.random() converted to game engine equivalents
  • improved compatibility for custom civs that replace lighthouse with UB (eg. tlingit)
  • other minor bug fixes/adjustments

edit: just an incremental update mostly, still have plans for a more life-like storm behaviour, but this plays/looks a little better. pre-astro ocean movement bug not yet handled in-mod, fingers crossed for .dll side fix for now. This is just about the end of my 2023 modding season, time will fill up again in Sept. Enjoy!
 
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Tried a few games with this, I like being able to enter borders without Open Borders (along with Perfidious Recon Units) delete storms, movement mechanics and new buildings/National Wonders are nice. However I find the storms mechanic mostly just an annoyance, doesn't seem to add much to the game except slowing movement/blocking sight. Also I find the visuals very distracting - maybe if it's possible to slow down the rain animation, make the clouds darker, and adjust the "rain" so it falls from below the clouds not above. The worst issue is playing with MB+ makes processing turns for AI much slower, especially as more of the map gets revealed.

Other things I did/noticed:
-I tried cleaning up the text for the Magellan's Expedition Wonder and the other buildings. Also I don't seem to be getting Spices from Magellan's Expedition when built. I also noticed that (along with Perfidious Recon Units), there are different wordings for promotions such as "Vision", "Sight", and "Visibility" - do they mean the same thing or are they different?
-Is Maritime Academy build supposed to be 125? Very low compared to similar buildings.
-Sometimes tiles are revealed but I can't actually see the units on them, although you can tell because you can't move a unit onto the tile. Also, there is a white "nil" text that pops up on ranged combat I think, not sure if it's related to a promotion or something.
-Land units seem to be getting the "Hull Speed" promotion, on land when near rivers, not sure if this is intentional.

Hope I didn't sound too negative, would like to be helpful where I can :)
Attached screenshots/files with my edits.
 

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That's great feedback, I will look at each of these aspects for improvement; I will likely copy/paste your suggestions into my dev copy, appreciate any edits already-done! :D

Re: storms, it was not really my design intention to have these be all that impactful; just wanted some forest/hill equivalents to break up the flat terrain in ocean... ie movement and vision effects. Secondarily to give the ocean some thematic, life-like quality, though this is still in the works. Their effects can be tweaked further, though I will hold off til I can get more ideas translated into code before adjusting from the movement/vision paradigm.

That animation effect is the best available as far as what's built-in to civ engine (afaik); I didn't make them so much as just co-opt them. I agree they're imperfect: the cloud is fuji's, and the falling water, I think its from the background of a civ leader scene. Another user on these forums, GhostToast, has demonstrated that new animations & effects can be injected into the game, we're not stuck with pre-built; in future revision I would like to attempt new effects for these, much as you describe. It will take me a while to get to this however. For now consider this somewhat of a framework for additional mod features down the road.

More immediately, I will likely add custom options to enable/disable various features, complete the storm spawn mechanism i have planned, and look to squeeze out some more performance & fix bugs. Alternatively I've been contemplating making the storms its own separate mod, as code-wise it functions mostly independently from the other features here (for now); will revisit this thought in a few revisions.

Some quick comments/reflections/further questions based on your feedback:

The worst issue is playing with MB+ makes processing turns for AI much slower, especially as more of the map gets revealed.
I agree; I recently re-built the offending feature entirely, resulting in significant performance boost, but it could be streamlined further. I am leaning towards making the movement bonus on lighthouse/trade route plots a naval-unit-only thing, as this would effectively turn off the heaviest resource hit completely for players with maritime academy.

-I tried cleaning up the text for the Magellan's Expedition Wonder and the other buildings. Also I don't seem to be getting Spices from Magellan's Expedition when built.
Appreciate the text updates, will use 'em. Likely a small oversight in the lua code for the resources, should be easy fix.

I also noticed that (along with Perfidious Recon Units), there are different wordings for promotions such as "Vision", "Sight", and "Visibility" - do they mean the same thing or are they different?
imprecision on my part, my text was often an afterthought to the rest of the modding work, and in some cases may reflect older versions -- will do a pass on text & adjust/improve to match civ's general useage of these terms & clarify current function

-Is Maritime Academy build supposed to be 125? Very low compared to similar buildings.
tbh its been months since I've built one, I can't even remember how this feels when acquired. It should feel valuable, however the main work to get one is exploring 80% of the ocean, and relative production cost can thus vary considerably depending on when it becomes available; some games I don't even manage to explore enough ocean before the map is revealed by late game tech, others I've already met the threshold when I research it. Will review what is possible to make it have a scaling cost for better fit regardless of when exploration threshold is reached.

-Sometimes tiles are revealed but I can't actually see the units on them, although you can tell because you can't move a unit onto the tile.
is this specifically recon units? You mentioned you were playing w/ perfidious recon, and this sets pre-paratrooper recon to invisible. I think this is just limitation of civ engine and this invis feature. If other non-recon units are becoming invisible somehow, i will need more info.

Also, there is a white "nil" text that pops up on ranged combat I think, not sure if it's related to a promotion or something.
Its related to a promotion but is intended to be a blank string -- possible I set some of them to have no value rather than blank string, will double check. Might be how EUI reads blank strings though, not sure. Civ engine wants to put text on the screen every time a unit gets a post-combat promotion, and this mod makes frequent use of that mechanism, but text pop-ups are just too frequent if I let civ do its thing. It may be simpler to just have all the promo's managed in lua, will test/revise further

-Land units seem to be getting the "Hull Speed" promotion, on land when near rivers, not sure if this is intentional.
This is the land unit's component of the naval movement bonus near lighthouse/trade route. It shouldn't have any effect outside of moving faster in corresponding water plots; I'm curious what the connection to rivers is that you observed? In any case I think the land unit component will be axed so that trade waters can be turned off completely for players with maritime academy, and lower hit to system resources in late game.
 
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Re: storms, it was not really my design intention to have these be all that impactful; just wanted some forest/hill equivalents to break up the flat terrain in ocean... ie movement and vision effects. Secondarily to give the ocean some thematic, life-like quality, though this is still in the works. Their effects can be tweaked further, though I will hold off til I can get more ideas translated into code before adjusting from the movement/vision paradigm.

That animation effect is the best available as far as what's built-in to civ engine (afaik); I didn't make them so much as just co-opt them. I agree they're imperfect: the cloud is fuji's, and the falling water, I think its from the background of a civ leader scene. Another user on these forums, GhostToast, has demonstrated that new animations & effects can be injected into the game, we're not stuck with pre-built; in future revision I would like to attempt new effects for these, much as you describe. It will take me a while to get to this however. For now consider this somewhat of a framework for additional mod features down the road.

More immediately, I will likely add custom options to enable/disable various features, complete the storm spawn mechanism i have planned, and look to squeeze out some more performance & fix bugs. Alternatively I've been contemplating making the storms its own separate mod, as code-wise it functions mostly independently from the other features here (for now); will revisit this thought in a few revisions.

Yes maybe storms could give a defensive bonus to naval units. I understand the limitations for the animation, it's hard to portray a storm without obscuring what's on the tile and also not cluttering the map. I wonder if a more transparent version of map Fog could be done? Custom options or separating some mod components are a good idea too I think.

is this specifically recon units? You mentioned you were playing w/ perfidious recon, and this sets pre-paratrooper recon to invisible. I think this is just limitation of civ engine and this invis feature. If other non-recon units are becoming invisible somehow, i will need more info.

Oh I didn't know Perfidious Recon made units invisible, that probably explains it, it's kinda hilarious and terrifying when another civ's leader screen pops up even though I can't see their unit. Will double check on next playthrough.

Otherwise very much looking forward to future updates!
 
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