Marriage

[Tycoon101]

...impossible...

I disagree that it is impossible. I truly believe that they choose to be homosexual. It sickens me to see that they have made that choice. I truly believe that there is no chemical imbalance in the brain that causes them these feelings. Thus I am totally against them because there is no proof that they cannot help their feelings.

If you can find me the UTMOST, FULLEST, AND BEST PROOF that they cannot help it, then I will join your camp. But until then, I have a great lack in respect towards their sexual preferences.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@CivGeneralNo one will force any religion to perform same sex marriages. They will just give the same privileges to marriages performed by those that do. That is why civil unions seem to be the best bet. That way, any religion can choose which civil unions they will recognize and which types of marriage they will perform. But there is no way that the government can coerce any church into performing SSMs.

@Tycoon: Do you know any gay people? I don't see how it is all a choice. I mean, how could a guy willingly give up being attracted to women (who are very hot) for men? Now lesbianism, I understand. Seriously though, I don't know many gay people but I have seen nothing to indicate that being gay changes anything but with whom you sleep. I mean, if one chooses to be gay they are facing some social disapproval, severely reducing their pool of potential partners, making it harder to have a family, and so on. Hardly a choice. Actual smae sex activity, that is clearly a choice. But no one can choose the people to whom they are attracted.

 

[Tycoon101]

Tycoon: Do you know any gay people? I don't see how it is all a choice. I mean, how could a guy willingly give up being attracted to women (who are very hot) for men? Now lesbianism, I understand. Seriously though, I don't know many gay people but I have seen nothing to indicate that being gay changes anything but with whom you sleep.

I do not know. People who do things as if they are homosexual are around me, but I am not certain that they are. But I feel a horrible crawling beneath my skin and a chill whenever I see men asking for homosexual rights. I am sorry, but I have a problem with people who choose to love each other, even if they are of the seme gender. I have put homosexuality and pedophilia under the same category because of the moral corruption involved with each.

I do not know any of them personally because I distance myself from them.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I do not know. People who do things as if they are homosexual are around me, but I am not certain that they are. But I feel a horrible crawling beneath my skin and a chill whenever I see men asking for homosexual rights. I am sorry, but I have a problem with people who choose to love each other, even if they are of the seme gender. I have put homosexuality and pedophilia under the same category because of the moral corruption involved with each.

I do not know any of them personally because I distance myself from them.

I am sorry, but that is just ignorance. I think that you have allowed personal distaste to affect how you view morality. I mean, coprophagy gives me the creeps hardcore, but I can't view it as a major sin. There is also a huge difference between engaging in immoral behavior with a willing partner and doing so with someone unable and usually unwilling to give consent. And is molesting boys worse than molesting girls? I mean, that's homosexuality as well as pedophilia.

Anyways, I suggest that you actually make at least some effort to interact with at least a few gay people. Stereotypes often do not survive first contact with the "enemy". And although one should not necessarily spend all of one's time in the company of sinners, avoiding those of whom you disapprove isn't very Christlike.

 

[GenMarshall]

@CivGeneralNo one will force any religion to perform same sex marriages. They will just give the same privileges to marriages performed by those that do. That is why civil unions seem to be the best bet. That way, any religion can choose which civil unions they will recognize and which types of marriage they will perform. But there is no way that the government can coerce any church into performing SSMs.

That is one of my fears if SSMs become a reality, is that the Government will be on the backs of the Religions who oppose same-gender marrage such as Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, Islam, Orthodox Judaism, and many conservative Protestant denominations. I realy cant support civil unions because it is against the Catholic Church's teachings that supporting SSMs and same-sex civil unions is esentialy supporting and accepting an immoral act. Realy I dont see civil unions as a best bet and dont see how I can support it without being inconflict with my church's teachings.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

You don't have to support the unions. I don't and wouldn't. But I would support allowing them to happen. Just as now I do not support homosexual behavior but I support allowing it to happen.

Really, I think it is impossible that the government would ever force any church to perform SSMs. How do you enforce it? And since many of the churches that oppose SSMs are active politically, they would never get the votes. There would be a huge outrage over government interference in religion. I just can't see it happening.

Is that your only objection to recognizing SSMs?

 

[Tycoon101]

I am sorry, but that is just ignorance. I think that you have allowed personal distaste to affect how you view morality. I mean, coprophagy gives me the creeps hardcore, but I can't view it as a major sin. There is also a huge difference between engaging in immoral behavior with a willing partner and doing so with someone unable and usually unwilling to give consent. And is molesting boys worse than molesting girls? I mean, that's homosexuality as well as pedophilia.

Anyways, I suggest that you actually make at least some effort to interact with at least a few gay people. Stereotypes often do not survive first contact with the "enemy". And although one should not necessarily spend all of one's time in the company of sinners, avoiding those of whom you disapprove isn't very Christlike.

I do not view it as a sin, I view it as a corrupt thing that must be eliminated. Men cannot reproduce with one another. Women cannot reproduce with one another. Is this what NATURE intended?

I cannot stand them. If I HAVE talked to them I simper and walk away. I have nothing to say to them.

And pedophilia is equally as bad no matter what. I do not think that molesting boys is better or worse than molestig girls in the same way that male gays and female lesbians are equally bad. I fine it distasteful for some to support lesbians but shun gays.

 

[Tycoon101]

You don't have to support the unions. I don't and wouldn't. But I would support allowing them to happen. Just as now I do not support homosexual behavior but I support allowing it to happen.

Do you not support abortions, but allow them to happen?

I am curious. Please answer this, because it is along the same lines of the other things. Do you accept the practicing of a thing such as abortion, even if you dislike it?

 

[GenMarshall]

You don't have to support the unions. I don't and wouldn't. But I would support allowing them to happen. Just as now I do not support homosexual behavior but I support allowing it to happen.

That kind of boggles my mind. If one does not support it and would not (civil unions), but yet would support allowing them (civil unions) to happen. Much like I dont support homosexual behavor but I dont support allowing (SSM or Civil Unions) to happen based on the objections I listed below.

Is that your only objection to recognizing SSMs?

1. Marrage is a union between only one man and one woman
Here is my listing of objections to reconizing SSMs
2. It makes an immoral sex act acceptable to society
3. It would tarnish or make the tradition of heterosexual Marrage less important or meaningfull
4. It would make the government force religions opposed to same-gender marrages to conduct and bless Same-gender marrages against their will

 

[Tycoon101]

1. Marrage is a union between only one man and one woman
Here is my listing of objections to reconizing SSMs
2. It makes an immoral sex act acceptable to society
3. It would tarnish or make the tradition of heterosexual Marrage less important or meaningfull
4. It would make government force religions opposed to same-gender marrages to conduct and bless Same-gender marrages against their will

Hurrah! Three cheers to that!

I agree entirely.

 

[ironduck]

I have a question:

Most of the people I've seen on this forum who rattle on about how homosexuality is 'a choice' time and again compare it to pedophilia. And, coincidentally, these people are usually religious. So my question is: Do the priests or ministers of your churches come up with this comparison or where do you get this from? You might as well compare people with red hair to pedophiles.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Do you not support abortions, but allow them to happen?

I am curious. Please answer this, because it is along the same lines of the other things. Do you accept the practicing of a thing such as abortion, even if you dislike it?

I view abortion as a different thing. The way I see it, laws exist to protect people from others. But we should allowed to do whatever we choose within those bounds - we should have free will to do anything, even sin, as long as it does not interfere with the rights of others. Abortion, insofar as it ends a human life, clearly interferes with the rights of another person. Homosexuality, or adultery or fornication, may very well be wrong but does not harm others and so should not be forcibly prevented. I have far more to fear from my alcoholic wife-beating neighbor than the lesbian couple down the street. (Hypothetically speaking.) He has a capacity to harm me or others physically and discredits marriage far more.

I should point out that my views on this issue are a little more liberal (gasp!) than most Mormons, but still within the teachings and doctrine of the church.

@CivGeneral: I still don't know why you think that the government will force churches to perform SSMs. They do not force any church to perform marriages now, do they? If a church doesn't believe in marriage, they are not required to perform them.

@ironduck: I explained in other threads why Mormons are opposed to homosexual behavior, even if you didn't quite get it. But we aren't in the habit of comparing it to pedophilia, and in point of fact have very different ways of dealing with the two.

 

[GenMarshall]

Do the priests or ministers of your churches come up with this comparison or where do you get this from? You might as well compare people with red hair to pedophiles.

The Roman Catholic Church acknowlages that homosexual persons have deap-seated homosexual tendencies. I interperate that as homosexuality is more of a biological thing than a choice (unless the person in question is bisexual and balances on three on the Kinsey scale, then that person does have a choice)

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I am not sure, but it seems to me that there may be a genetic or environmental tendency towards pedophilia just as there is for homosexuality (correct me if I am wrong). So being attracted to your gender and being attracted to children may both be unavoidable. But a) pedophilia is about power, not attraction and b) a gay adult can give consent. A child can't.

 

[croxis]

And those of us acting out of love?

 

[GenMarshall]

@CivGeneral: I still don't know why you think that the government will force churches to perform SSMs. They do not force any church to perform marriages now, do they? If a church doesn't believe in marriage, they are not required to perform them.

I read in the paper this morning in the editorial collum in regards to same-gender marrages and how the Government would impose over the churches who are opposed to same-gender marrages. Here are some examples from the editorial "Sometimes Discrimination Is Good" written by Cal Thomas

"Some countries have enacted or are considering laws that prohibit anyone, including ministers, from publicly stating that homosexual practice is wrong, or a 'sin.' Remember sin? Sinful is what we were before we became 'dysfunctional.'

Religious groups who operate adoption agencies and schools under government contracts could face lawsuits for opposing same-sex marriages. Under Massachusetts' anti-discrimination law, for example, the state told Catholic Charities it must place foster children with same-sex couples, or lose its state license to operate its adoption agency. Faced with a choice between its beliefs and the heavy hand of government, Catholic Charities of Boston decided to get out of the adoption business."

I have a feeling that if two gay men wishes to marry in a Catholic Cathedral, they will file a lawsuit against the Church for refusing to marry them due to religious and moral reasons.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I agree that such laws are wrong. Free speech is free speech, and the government has no right to force charitable agencies to do things they consider immoral. But I don't see it going as far as that. It is not the logical extension of SSms or civil unions anyways, so you could have the second without the first.

 

[ironduck]

Eran and CivGeneral - if you read my post you would see I specifically pointed to people who talk about homosexuality as 'a choice', which both of you specifically said it was not in the posts just above mine, so I'm not sure why you're responding to me.

Eran - you're correct that I don't understand why you view it as immoral, but that's not the question I was asking here. And yes, pedophilia is not a choice, it's a mental disorder because pedophiles feel an urge to do something that hurts other people. But my point is that pedophilia is no more related to homosexuality than being red-haired is related to pedophilia.

 

[The Yankee]

Ugh... If you pledge your lives together in marriage then you pledge that you will keep your sexual conduct with them alone for life. That is how I view it. Some of my other views might get me kicked out of here, but IMHO I believe that homosexuality is degrading our culture, making us soft, and opening us to unsavory things.

And if a married homosexual couple remains completely faithful? Adultery sounds like a larger problem to marriage.

 

[The Yankee]

They are equally evil. They are horribly bad things that must be discouraged. We must tell people that they should stop wanting to be homosexual.
I have heard enough stories about homosexuals that indicate that they did not have a tendency to liking members of the same sex until they chose to. Thus it seems that their argument that all sexuality is genetic is folly.

Given how much disdain there is for those who are homosexual, moreso perhaps in certain places than others, I don't see how someone would choose to be outcasted.

Again: Gay marriage and polygamy should be banned to stop the corruption of the world's values.

The world's values? What of those that are legally and morally allowed to take more than one wife? Or countries that have allowed homosexual marriages or civil unions or whatever they call them?